General Discussion

General DiscussionPhoenix this patch.

Phoenix this patch. in General Discussion
J-Man

    I feel like phoenix this patch feels underappreciated. I don't know what he's like in 5k + but here in 3k, he seems to be a pretty chill offlane hero.

    Thoughts on phoenix this time around?

    Riguma Borusu

      dead

        https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3320859909
        don't pick that hero otherwise^

        J-Man

          @Sama counter playing ursa is easy, phoenix is pretty good at kiting heroes in the early game. Also since I believe that Phoenix is a natural Halberd carrier with A decent size HP pool, I don't find fighting Ursa to be a problem in the late game.

          @Renshin Yeah that 3 man counter trilane seems pretty annoying. But I feel like you could do something to not die in that situation.

          Nile

            Bad without void.

            Pale Mannie

              troll warlord is indeed a good carry

              Jacked

                Why the fuck can't I blink strike egg?

                J-Man

                  @Diox cause it has a weird interaction. I remember when Phoenix first came into dota 2, Windrunner could ult Phoenix's egg, causing windrunner to shit stomp every phoenix.

                  I think the Egg counts as being.... Egg. A Nonhero, Non building, and Non creep object

                  Riguma Borusu

                    egg's classification is very similar to a ward

                    Nile

                      Quelling blade it.

                      Anomaluna

                        I love Phoenix.

                        Illyasviel

                          hes good

                          one syllable anglo-saxon

                            amazing offlaner 0 base armor 285 ms close to 0 roaming/junglng ability

                            Pigeon ( °□°) ︵

                              hes a good support not sure about offlaner though

                              TheMaverick427

                                A lot of viable right click carries this patch makes phoenix not such a good choice. Also winning lanes is really important now and phoenix doesn't really do that either.

                                Bungmangler

                                  bird can do very well in a trilane, also with respect to ursa, just wait until he overpowers, then its safe to dive in and fire spirit , egg etc

                                  However, Alernari has a great point that he cannot jungle effectively IMO until level 7.

                                  Also its tough that bird cannot contest farm very well .

                                  Also since Jugg spin dispels spirits and allows him to attack it during spin, Lifestealer is also a bitch to play against too!

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                                  Stentorian

                                    relatively bad hero. al the good things said about phoenix only works on paper.

                                    in team fights anyone with a brain will pop bkb and rape the egg.

                                    the only thing going for phx is he's relatively hard to kill because of dive. But who the hell wants to gank a phx?

                                    Snu

                                      LUL @ RENSHIN
                                      Gives link to 4k average MMR game, where hi picks Phoenix with less than what, 10 games on the hero?

                                      @OP, for 7.06d and e, I have 5 wins and 0 losses. The hero is great - just all about knowing when to use your abilities (the mov. slow, as slow, and heal). He is a great counter to LC (pre Agh's), and frankly, doesn't give a fuck about Ursa because you can kite him ridiculously with the usual force staff (or Atos), and you, of course, don't put your egg next to him.

                                      Snu

                                        @Stentorian, wrong, wrong and wrong.
                                        Phoenix is still situational, but not bad. Aside from Strong Dispell heroes on your team (Aba and LC?), and Ursa, your Attack Speed Slow is ridiculously strong, especially with the DPS you can get from your lvl 15 talent. Your Dive is also a great movement speed slow, and is especially strong when combined with literally any ability.
                                        Your E can heal and damage alot, especially on rooted targets (usually why you get a Rod of Atos). Great counter to LC if you are smart with your positioning!

                                        in team fights anyone with a brain will pop bkb and rape the egg.

                                        Yeah, no. The whole point of the egg when I've played the hero, is to counter initiate. Also, you use your Attack Speed slow that supports might get 1 click on the egg - if they even bother. Also, you put the egg where only a ranged hero can right click it without movement. Why? Because the enemy team has to decide to either kill you (who has already dumped off 150 dps) or continue to focus on who they initiated on.

                                        Stentorian

                                          ^ maybe that works in your bracket when you play against retards.

                                          too many ifs and buts for phoenix to be effective against competent opponents (i'm talking 6k+ so not even my bracket).

                                          I'd rather have a disrupter or a witch doctor on my team.

                                          Snu

                                            I've also played Phoenix against a 4k average team, who you may not consider retards, and still managed to make a huge game impact, so I dunno what your problem is.

                                            https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3267347196 - Played greedy support, with Medium game impact, carried by mid. 3.9k avg mmr.
                                            https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3259182493 - Played dual offlane with a Jakiro, most damage and healing. 4.3k avg mmr.
                                            https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3123135787 - Played offlane, got wrecked by AM, but still most impact

                                            And there are more.

                                            one syllable anglo-saxon

                                              snus proven multiple times that he is a remarkable retard, just ignore him

                                              Shou

                                                pheonix egg can outplay counters but its hard and ull usually fail

                                                Snu

                                                  @Alenari, feel free to explain and offer evidence - or continue to be an arrogant bastard.

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                                                  Giff me Wingman

                                                    pheonix is ok, but if u're bad at coordinating ur team and positioning urself u're fucked.

                                                    TripleSteal-

                                                      whos snu and why are his posts so retarded

                                                      Jacked

                                                        Guys u know fury swipes kinda has Low cd right. Waiting for ursa to use it is not a good way to decide when to egg I think.

                                                        Also troll destroys egg

                                                        J-Man

                                                          My tactic is to either bait ursa, or escape when it comes to that, and I agree that phoenix is best used to counter initiate.

                                                          Teamwork is indeed key on phoenix, but in the mid 3k bracket and lower, he is a reliable offlane in my book.

                                                          The only problem I have while playing phoenix is a team built around troll, or team bkb. Even then, team bkb is still not as bad as a really good troll.

                                                          Also like to point out, if you're good at phoenix, using egg is not your best bet. I always find egg to be a last resort kind of thing. You dive in, get your fire spirits out, and you either chase down the enemy heroes, or just wait for them to come to you. Phoenix in my book is a solid frontliner with a great way to disengage or engage fights at his own pace. A passive Phoenix who's not on the fight 24/7 is not a good phoenix in my book.

                                                          Come to late game, I usually have either halberd, or scepter by that point in time. 1 person in bkb usually doesn't do phoenix in, and I feel like the talent system (Post -20 sec spawn cooldown removal) is a great way to get phoenix into the scene.

                                                          With that being said however, I do lack the necessary 5k+ games to be remotely credible. (According to puff up elitist assholes). Phoenix in my book has high impact early to mid game, and a troubling (if not hard to stay alive) late game.

                                                          J-Man

                                                            Also with my habit of first picking Phoenix, it makes me happy to see a team lose their shit cause someone picked ursa/troll/LC and get fucked by my mind games.

                                                            Shou

                                                              Gl in the offlane with 0 starting armor, crappy dmg, huge CD on ur escape, and low movespeed

                                                              Jacked

                                                                Do ppl even bother countering Phoenix. I don't think so

                                                                Illyasviel

                                                                  play sup buy tranquil midas veil dagon laser bird GO!

                                                                  Snu

                                                                    Normal Skill (and HS and VHS) proved: nokappa,
                                                                    https://www.dotabuff.com/players/73811849

                                                                    Jacked

                                                                      @yui. last match 4 months ago. nice try

                                                                      dead

                                                                        better play supp phoenix
                                                                        though its very situational

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