General Discussion

General DiscussionA question to divines and above only.

A question to divines and above only. in General Discussion
OBY

    in my last game I played centaur with a nature's prophet(4) we swapped the safe and offlane and I had good farm and xp.

    then I started skirmishing in other lanes and getting objectives together with my team all good so far.

    but then I slowly realize that the NP is choosing not to enter a fight or two resulting on a lost teamfight from our side.

    some time later I check his inventory and my pos 4 is more farmed and more experienced than I am, then joined the fight and got an ultra-kill and proceeded killing their cores singel handedly ending up with a beyond godlike spree.

    while I built a pipe and such I started thinking maybe I am the pos 4 now? what happened? did he play right? was I just not good enough and didn't keep up? we ended up winning but I am confused.

    Questa Discussione è stata modificata
    lesserafim

      a question to divines and above only

      proceeds by not asking a question

      OBY

        what do you mean? the question is there did you read it ?

        .,,

          sounds like its your first time playing with an NP in your team.

          OBY

            I've seen NP pos 4 in immortal pubs and they don't get as farmed you'll see a meteor hammer at best and drums ,you know pos4 items.

            Spírít

              Have you not played with a NP on your team before this game? Of course he is farmed, NP is the best farming "support" in the game.

              No other "pos 4" has an ulti that auto farms the map every minute, the only hero whose summons can compete with NP farming speed is Enigma and he doesnt get a free teleport to any spot on the map to accelerate his farm. NP also has insanely good stat growth and can buy luxury items with a lot of utility instead of being forced to buy super expensive stat items.

              Calling NP a support is a lie cores tell themselves to pretend their role can compare to the almighty presence that is natures prophet. The only place you will see someone actually use NP as a support is extremely high tier games everyone else plays it like a core.

              Questo commento è stato modificato
              .,,

                I dont really understand what your question is, but again, im not allowed to answer so

                Hope this helps

                https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jTM2SMc6Dgk

                Puppey pos 5 NP, top networth.

                Aimstrong

                  so you found about pos 4, cool

                  one syllable anglo-saxon

                    a question to divines and above only

                    ywn

                      is that a fuicking anime picture alenari pogChamp

                      AnŦaiN

                        Go to youtube , write np sup guide .After that Watch some pro play it . Play 2-3 pub with np sup urself . Congrats ur question is answered

                        Jokes aside np is a fucking idiot hero . I remember a time np support in our team had comparable farm to our pos 1 near 35 min

                        OBY

                          To make myself clear I want to rephrase my question.

                          The np avoided joining 2 fights where we could've potentially won but still prioritized on getting farm and becoming a core while we were on the lead anyways pushing together.

                          he ended up carrying the game so I'm confused to which was the correct play? if he joined us earlier to dominate in the fights would we have won earlier? or farming while we're fighting as a pos4 NP was the right move here.

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                          Spírít

                            You're trash mate you are confused about one of the fundamental laws of dota 2, Natures Prophet always gets farm.

                            OBY

                              Maybe in your normal skill games its normal for a pos4 to get fat and carry a game like a pos1 but not in mine that is why I'm surprised.

                              please go do your homework before you try to teach people who are better than you.

                              talk to me when you have a blue star next to your name bitch.

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                              KUKULAMIN KA BUT THE K IS...

                                Poggies wtf did I jsut read

                                Glimmer of Dawn

                                  Recently I've been playing a lot with an immortal friend who reached immortal spamming NP. He's a great greedy 4 and I'm a very sacrificial 6 support, mostly playing Windrunner. He's told me all about his theory of how NP works.

                                  A good sample replay of this is Match ID 4979072342.

                                  Nature's Prophet is a great support for multiple reasons. His zoning (body block and area control) and trading capability in lane is top tier with treants and blight stone, Teleportation is excellent for so many support jobs like warding, ganking but also core roles like farming and split push. Sprout being a vision tool is also excellent, dewards or jumping on tinker are great examples of how NP is great.

                                  Add to this the fact that his ult is global and amazing, you've basically got a hero with 4 amazing abilities that are independent of farm. That's the mark of a good support.

                                  On the other hand, he believes that Nature's Prophet has amazing talents, and I can't argue with that.

                                  https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Nature%27s_Prophet#Talents

                                  So the two main builds that he goes for is a damage build with +30 damage and an assortment of straight damage and hex, or a tanky build with auras like pipe and vlads.

                                  There's also other builds like you mention. The point is, the hero has A LOT of viable items, strategies and ways to play it, which makes him extremely flexible. The fact that he farms fast is an extra bonus. These aspects make him a good core.

                                  At the very highest levels of play, you are consistently seeing strategies that aim for the 4 transitioning into being a core, then using tempo, map control and smoke ganks in order to restrict the amount of gold accessible for enemy heroes. The ideal scenario is going 4 cores vs 2 cores, which happens if you properly restrict the enemy's space. Nature's Prophet is an ideal type of support to transition into a core for the reasons I outlined earlier.

                                  So to answer your question directly, it completely depends on the game. The flexibility of NP means that there are many potential routes to victory. Coming in might have helped, or it might have just fucked over his vision of what is needed to win the game. Perhaps he decided he was gonna be 1 now. Some games actually will require that. But all that is certain is that NP is the kind of support which will get a lot of farm no matter what happens in any long duration divine+ game.

                                  As for your Centaur game, you are the kind of hero that doesn't farm that fast, so in a game where NP 4 is going to naturally restrict farm by pushing out waves so you can't access them, you need to play around your timings and protect your timings, and stack as many camps for yourself as you can. If you are close to an item and NP tries to tp to a lane you want to farm, ask him (nicely) to go somewhere else, because you farm slow and you need that item. He has teleport, he can literally go anywhere else, just ask him before he completes TP. Also if you have farmrate issues, try to get NP to push down towers and create more space. An NP support should try to take dangerous aggressive farm in enemy jungle to allow his cores to take friendly jungle.

                                  Be proactive though, because of Centaur's low farmrate you kinda get into this 3.5 limbo so it's best to play around blink stampede+ item timings. Buy smokes and drag your team to go gank, NP can split or join whenever so you have every reason to be proactive.

                                  Finally, maybe it's not necessary to be snobby about rank when some of the posts have actually been fine and helpful.

                                  Spírít

                                    Hes a troll got his account boosted to divine 100%

                                    Glimmer of Dawn

                                      You do realise that it's really easy to check for boosted accounts right?

                                      The guy is an offlane specialist whose most played hero this season is Dark Seer. It's not really what boosters do.

                                      His most played hero of all time is Morphling, which the booster may have played, but he's got 461 games in it, so that doesn't fit the booster bill either.

                                      Boosted accounts look something like: Meepo/ Storm Spirit/ TA 50 matches played 80% winrate, because super high winrate= mmr quickly, which is the booster's livelihood. The higher the winrate, the quicker the job is done for multiple boosts and multiple clients.

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                                      one syllable anglo-saxon

                                        is that a fuicking anime picture alenari pogChamp

                                        ew no im not weird like that

                                        its from hentai

                                        OBY

                                          I also didn't play Morph for 3 months.

                                          The reason I'm being a dick is because I am a dick first of and because Goku didn't respect my request.

                                          THANK YOU very much for your comment Shimmering Sea I learned a lot from you.

                                          Glimmer of Dawn

                                            You're welcome.

                                            Here's a bonus tip: being positive, communicative and encouraging with teammates can only help your winrate. Which is the ONLY long term factor of climbing mmr.

                                            flourishing new leaf

                                              Positions such as 1 2 3 4 5 only just have great meaning at the laning stage. Then you play whatever you have to play to win. If he's gotten strong just helping and he's taking care of 2-3 heroes or in charge of the splitpush and space creating then you just have to adapt and fill in what's needed if what he's doing is winning the game. That doesn't mean you necessarily have to farm less or stop acting as the main core.

                                              Dota 2 is a flexible game. Play it as such.

                                              Spírít

                                                I didn't respect your request because it was stupid, advice can be good or bad regardless of rank. Only a brainlet would disregard reasonable information because of a rank.

                                                OBY

                                                  I'm choosing my mentors not you, maybe your advice is good but I don't know if its good because I'm clueless therefore I'm choosing to listen to someone I know is by fact better than me at the game.

                                                  You taking it personal is your problem.

                                                  when I was Ancient 5 the games were a lot different and I was not as good .

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                                                  mineMime

                                                    I didnt get on what bracket have you played? The answer depends on that.

                                                    Just(wiNner

                                                      actually he didnt play good if he missed teamfights that u could win with him. also he wasnt pos4 (i mean he didnt play as pos4). propably it wasnt your fault. sometimes if u are core(lets say mid) and u get focused and die 1st and then your team teamwipe them u might see your pos5 surpass u in lvls

                                                      LegendaryHD

                                                        I didn't respect your request because it was stupid, advice can be good or bad regardless of rank. Only a brainlet would disregard reasonable information because of a rank.

                                                        Imagine when you are an Elon Musk but only accept suggestion from other billionaire or professor even tho some peasant have a lot more information about the topic, I mean it's up to you whether you want to accept suggestion from people lower than divine or not but don't be an asshole and have a high ego.

                                                        DemonicTrashcan

                                                          You're being narrow minded OP.

                                                          DotA is a very complex game, and one's skillset of DotA is comprised of many different parts. Last hitting, harassing/trading, micro judgement, macro judgement, farming patterns, rotation times, power spike understanding, draft comprehension, positioning, specific hero understanding, itemization, etc.

                                                          As with any topic with such a massive range of information, it's unlikely for any/every player to excel at every category. DotA is also a game that, (as of now,) cannot be perfected, nor played optimally. It is not a "solved" game, therefore even the very best players in the world will go through their games making dozens and dozens of sub-optimal choices and mistakes.

                                                          Anyone who's at an even half-decent rank, (Archon 4 being the 50 percentile of ranked players,) so let's say Archon or higher, is going to have a decent understanding of some of topics I labeled above. Players in Legend-Ancient tier will likely excel at some of the topics, and it is through these particular areas of skill/knowledge that they have gained a higher position among the ranks.

                                                          When I was at the bottom of Ancient, I was probably still only slightly worse at farming than I am today. Having played DotA on-and-off for years, farming was always a specialty of mine and an ability that I honed repeatedly until it came to me naturally. Despite my lack of draft comprehension, macro judgements, itemization, power spike understanding and positioning, I was still in the top 15.55% of ranked players at Ancient 1 simply due to me excelling at a single aspect of the game.

                                                          Relative to my current skill level I was a terrible player by all means. But skill is relative, and even me today could probably have learned some good farming tips from me back then. I'm sure right now a support player who is 1-2k MMR below my core MMR could give me legit advice on supporting as it's not a role I excel at. All I could do was lane and farm, but it got me somewhere.

                                                          Everyone is at their rank for a reason, and if their rank is even half decent, (Archon or higher,) then they're probably decent/skilled at certain aspects of the game. Their opinion can still have value. Immediately dismissing all players below X rank is much more of a projection of your own insecurity, (displaying the excessive amount of value your ego has in your ranked position,) than a legitimate position.

                                                          Glimmer of Dawn

                                                            Really well said DemonicTrashcan.

                                                            And yet @Ben - Yashar

                                                            a. Even I wouldn't have been able to put together such a comprehensive post if it were not for the fact I'd literally just spoken to my Immortal friend at length about NP. I have plenty of experience vs NP but talking to him filled in my gaps of my knowledge, since I am not a NP player and he in an NP specialist.

                                                            b. By your own admission you have significant holes in understanding and would not be able to identify good advice from bad advice. This is worrisome for improvement. If you are really wanting to continue improving it's going to get continually more difficult to climb as your strong points become less important (because everyone has strong points) and your weak points become more important (because they learn how to exploit yours and they don't have as many as you do.)

                                                            c. Therefore if you are going to keep improving it's more useful to have a strategic approach this. Download your own replays (wins and losses) and analyse them for things you could do better. Whether it's technical things like farming, stacking, pulling, or strategic like rune timings, warding, ganking, smokes, rosh contests, the easiest way to improve in any single aspect is to watch back a replay, watch your perspective, watch an enemy perspective, then set yourself some goals to work towards in your next week of games (e.g. I will rotate with my first ult timing every game).

                                                            d. Also, you need to learn to reason for yourself and use your visualisation to relate to advice on forums. If you actually don't have a clue what would be good advice or bad advice, you need to work on your game understanding and visualisation because that is holding you back.

                                                            The reality is an NP spammer at Legend could probably teach you a lot about how NP works, at least before my previous post.

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                                                            OBY

                                                              You seem to focus the title too much so let me make myself clear to avoid any more drama.

                                                              A story to help you understand my stubbornness to get help from higher ranked players:

                                                              A substitute teacher entered the classroom , needless to say the teacher isn't as good as the main teacher.

                                                              Johnny raises his hand to ask a question: Why is my support NP avoiding teamfights to become a core when we're teamfighting?

                                                              The substitute teacher : its because NP farms fast hence is a core.

                                                              yeah no shit it farms fast, the question is why was farming prioritized over winning teamfights.

                                                              in conclusion you must know who to listen to and who to ask.

                                                              I'm not saying I don't want to listen to lower ranks because they're trash , what I say is I don't trust that because I am the one that's asking and logic is not a big enough factor for me to tell from a bad or a good advice and I doubt everything.

                                                              A lot of people chose to take it personally but its whatever its their problem not mine.

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                                                              Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                Your argument is flawed.

                                                                "A substitute teacher entered the classroom , needless to say the teacher isn't as good as the main teacher."

                                                                Your premise assumes that the original teacher has better knowledge and understanding, and that they have no holes in knowledge that the substitute would have that would outstrip the original teacher. Whereas as we were talking about, 2 months ago a Legend NP spammer would be able to teach me about NP.

                                                                So your conclusion isn't valid either.

                                                                Anyway, if doubt is your natural state, that's actually a good quality to be able to apply logic and critical thinking. Worth practising if you actually want to improve, because it's a key skill that allows you to interpret pro player perspectives whilst watching them. That's an other pro tip btw: watch a pro player's perspective and analyse their decision making.

                                                                OBY

                                                                  Sad truth is all the advices Ancients gave me in the thread were not satisfying just as I envisaged.

                                                                  Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                    Dude you're Divine 1 you're barely above Goku Black. That's his point

                                                                    DemonicTrashcan

                                                                      The confirmation bias is strong in you Ben.

                                                                      Step 1: Assume all non-Divines don't have useful posts.

                                                                      Step 2: Read all non-Divine posts with the unconscious assumption that there won't be any useful points.

                                                                      Step 3: Fulfill your own prophecy by immediately discounting a non-Divine's entire perspective the moment you read something you deem "unworthy."

                                                                      This is the problem with most people and politics and why discussing such topics often leads to unsavory conversations. Confirmation bias has people unconsciously looking for other people to confirm their own beliefs, not searching for an objective truth.

                                                                      Step 1: I don't like guns.

                                                                      Step 2: Look into research about how X or Y social factor affects something about guns.

                                                                      Step 3: Discount research that goes against my beliefs but make a cute social media post sharing the research that does support my beliefs.

                                                                      Swap out guns for any topic, (me being American it's a common talking point here,) and you can get the same result. As long as you let yourself be ruled by confirmation bias, (no one can be truly free of it, it is instinctual behavior,) you will always be held back by it. Slows down your ability to learn and comprehend the truth behind things.

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                                                                      Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                        Add to it the effect of echo chambers and anger and you've got quite a mix.

                                                                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc

                                                                        Excellent video explaining that.

                                                                        OBY

                                                                          you got it mixed up I just don't want to listen to noobs its all

                                                                          VISHNU

                                                                            Is it really that bad to have a preselection of opinions? It's about time efficiency. I'm too lazy, and too busy to check if a 2k MMR guy is right or wrong. It's especially true for topics that are not that easy to understand, and not one-dimensional (just like what OP asked). Maybe when some of you guys get older you will understand it. People ask me - why do I pay someone to coach me, if I could learn about it myself. I would rather pay hundreds of dollars, if it could save me days/weeks/months of trying to figure it out on my own. Success is about being efficient, and hundreds 2k MMR opinions, might not be worth one from 7k MMR guy.

                                                                            OBY

                                                                              anyone without a blue star next to their name is unworthy of my time.

                                                                              stop trying to white knight noobs ffs they get better, they aquire the blue star and then they tell me what they think otherwise I don't give a fuck because their games are different than mine.

                                                                              like stop being salty and looking for ways to say whatever they say might actually be helpful in a way or another, in the end an immortal player is more experienced in a lot more aspects of the game so even if an ancient player makes a good point it might actually be countered in higher mmr pubs.

                                                                              shimmering sea just check gokus recent games, its normal skill nigga is just not as good .

                                                                              yes ranks mean a lot for me and I'm not going to change my position on it or I ever will, everyone has a reason for being in their bracket

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                                                                              LegendaryHD

                                                                                Ben =
                                                                                -0% Respect
                                                                                -0% IQ
                                                                                -0% Logic
                                                                                -0% EQ
                                                                                -10% Logical Fallacy
                                                                                -25% Toxic
                                                                                -2.5% Gish Gallop
                                                                                -3.5% Skills
                                                                                -4% Knowledge
                                                                                -5% Water
                                                                                -50% Salt

                                                                                OBY

                                                                                  you're the salty one actually, you being a legend is confirming it.

                                                                                  kowareta

                                                                                    LegendaryFullHD:
                                                                                    -50% mongolololooid
                                                                                    -50% gay

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                                                                                    LegendaryHD

                                                                                      Yeah sorry I forgot only divine can comment in here my bad dude.

                                                                                      kowareta

                                                                                        ^im going to make a thread for mongolololoids
                                                                                        send me ideas

                                                                                        LegendaryHD

                                                                                          Everyone can comment except Be* - Y*shar.

                                                                                          kowareta

                                                                                            and parma-chan, she is not one of us, she is actually smart

                                                                                            LegendaryHD

                                                                                              Are you joking or being serious? Parma will be the leader you fucking mongodloaids.

                                                                                              kowareta

                                                                                                I never joked about anything
                                                                                                Kurwareta
                                                                                                -100% serious
                                                                                                -0% clown

                                                                                                LegendaryHD

                                                                                                  I'm sorry dear I thought you were:
                                                                                                  Kurwa
                                                                                                  -50% mongoliifds
                                                                                                  -25% clown
                                                                                                  -24% ghoul
                                                                                                  -1% serious

                                                                                                  OBY

                                                                                                    classic nerds worshipping a gamer girl typical.

                                                                                                    kowareta

                                                                                                      nO we not worshipping
                                                                                                      we whorshipping

                                                                                                      Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                                                        @ Vishnu sure there are practical reasons, and of course an expert's opinion will have more value than a non-expert.

                                                                                                        However, this isn't always the case. In terms of taking advice directly vs figuring stuff out for yourself by having a good method of learning, one is a rote learning approach where you just nod along and copy without fully internalising it, and one is getting better because you want to try to understand the situation for yourself. Pros aren't necessarily good at conveying this information, nor communicating a direct strategy for how to get better at something. Some top players I really enjoy watching like Merlini and Waga are great at communicating what they are thinking and what they think is required to win this game of dota. Fundamentally this comes down to the fact that being a good dota player doesn't make you a good teacher of dota by itself.

                                                                                                        A good example of how people unthinkingly copy pros is when people have static item builds that they copy because they saw a pro do it.

                                                                                                        It's like my analysis of what makes a good support or a good core: understanding that will allow you to gauge the strengths and weaknesses of support and figure stuff out for yourself as to what items to buy every game. Proper itemisation is a lot to do with figuring out what capabilities your team has vs their capabilities. And learning how to reason about dota in this way as a series of cost-benefit analyses is how you learn to know where you're going and what you're doing.

                                                                                                        @ Ben - Yashar

                                                                                                        See this is what DemonicTrashcan and I have been on about- this isn't about whiteknighting noobs. Everyone has elitist thoughts sometimes, I'm not going to pretend that I don't eyeroll sometimes when I see things written that I completely disagree with, and then look at their medal and think "this is why they think this."

                                                                                                        The difference for me is that I don't let that overtake my rational mind, so when I read people's posts, I can still take away something as true and useful from its evident truth or the poster's argument, rather than simply dismissing it as dumb and useless because they don't have a blue star next to their name.

                                                                                                        The fact that your instinct is that my posts about your attitude to learning are about defending a gaming skill underclass further speaks to your bias against their opinions.

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