General Discussion

General DiscussionOP carry and Mid right now?

OP carry and Mid right now? in General Discussion
G L O U R D

    Guys who's the most carry and mid hero night now? 7.23 . In ancient bracket.

    xboy

      SF mid is op right now.

      Wukz

        void spirit

        Jack Attack

          Void spirit mid is absolutely insane rn.

          Vaikiss`742.

            void spirit in any role , snapfire in any role , razor in any role , slark 1 2 3 , batrider any role

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            Venom of the Red Lotus

              looks like tiny carry is the meta

              Upgrayedd

                SF mid is op right now.

                In the last 24 hours SF has a 45 pct winrate. Am I missing something or are you pranking us? I'm pretty sure the OP is asking about heroes that can both mid and carry, in which case SF is probably one of the worst in the game barring support/offlaners.

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                i play 4 fun lol

                  i heard riki mid lane is pre legit since u get fast 6 to go invis and afk the game cuz u lost anyways

                  Upgrayedd

                    batrider any role

                    Batrider currently has 45 pct winrate in the last 24 hours. Nice troll, though.

                    Protoss player

                      Templar if you know how to play her decently (traps management, psi blades positioning, refraction cd management, farming patterns, double melding, etc...).

                      xboy

                        This herald needs to stfu. Why would general winrate matter? SF/Ta is all you need

                        1.Canw in most lanes
                        2.Can jungle if needed
                        3.sf can gank ta cant
                        4.Can kill heroes
                        5.Can push

                        Thats all you need to win the fucking game its not hard

                        ...

                          @xboy you have less than 50 % win rate on SF and saying SF is op and at the same time you insulting my herald brother... you are coward even to calibrate so go finger yourself... my herald brother heroically calibrated he is not coward at least

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                          xboy

                            Thats why the high MMR players dont bother posing here. You just get heralds that thionk their opinion is worth something. Guess ill stick to trolling the archons instead of giving them advice. Not like they have any interest in getting better

                            ...

                              You coward that is why play turbo and not play ranked. I dont think you canmake it to Legend.

                              ...

                                Prove me wrong.

                                ShiftingSkys

                                  SF is dogshit right now. His win-rate Pre patch was 45% his win-rate right now is 45%. He is outclassed in everything he offers. #1split pushing- NP, TA for example. He is outclassed in damage mid by Zeus, Razor, TA and even dogshit sniper. So he isn't the best at Pushing. he is not the best at Farming which is what the hero is designed for and he is not the best at solo pick offs anymore. He also isn't the best target for the ridiculous Pos 5 LS running rampant in this patch. So in short the hero is Mediocre at best. Try TA, NP, Gyro, Razor mid. All having MUCH more success then the dumpster fire that is SF. GL spamming SF mid Xboy.

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                                  Grimm

                                    The best mid right now is huskar tbh.
                                    Get 2 sange and you're at 100 hp regen while mid life.

                                    KiiNG - HU$LEANDO

                                      https://www.dotabuff.com/players/133419936/matches?date=week&hero=shadow-fiend&enhance=overview

                                      Im still rusty cuz i stopped playing almost a month. If youre below 4k the hero doesnt even matter just dont be bad

                                      KiiNG - HU$LEANDO

                                        @shiftingskys Lolo bro my sf mdi has better success than the useless tryhard shit u do

                                        I play sf because its fun and when i have fun i win

                                        So is SF shit or am I just better than you?

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                                        KiiNG - HU$LEANDO

                                          1-15 razor mid superior to my SF?

                                          ...

                                            @i need pu$$y you have 46.22 % win rate on SF, you piece of shit, so stfu. By the way you cant take one game as a sample size you imbecile.

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                                            KiiNG - HU$LEANDO

                                              LOL if i was archon i would be this mad too !!!! XDDDDDDD

                                              ShiftingSkys

                                                What is with you cats and INDIVIDUAL #'s If your looking to talk individual Numbers you will see that I mostly have played razor offlane- The last mid I did was 5-0-4 and won the game fairly quickly. 35 Min or so~ #2 my total Razor win-rate is still 54% which is much better than both of your 46% SF winrates and that's under the assumption INDIVIDUAL winrate even mattered. I figured this was a GLOBAL discussion. In a GLOBAL discussion SF is dogshit. Sure hes playable but ON AVERAGE he is Dogshit for previously mentioned reasons. So why flame without the proper statistics. At least look before you talk shit Also Pu88y we are respectively in similar brackets and you barely manage a Total win-rate of 47% Lmao not that my 50% is That much better. I can say 50% > 47% especially with my "tryhard" playstyle.

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                                                KiiNG - HU$LEANDO

                                                  "GL spamming SF mid Xboy." "the hero is mediocre at best"

                                                  i have 64% this week.

                                                  ShiftingSkys

                                                    Nice Bro- Glad you found success with him. Like I said still playable. GL to anyone who tries it since you could literally play much better heroes and work alot les..

                                                    Upgrayedd

                                                      Im still rusty cuz i stopped playing almost a month. If youre below 4k the hero doesnt even matter just dont be bad

                                                      A) pro players, who are better than you, say differently
                                                      B) then how to you explain the differences in win rates between heroes within a bracket

                                                      Just logically, if hero doesn't matter in low brackets then all heroes in that bracket should be all clustered around , if not exactly at, 50 percent. But they are not. Hell, forget Herald, I don't even ever had to have played a game of Dota to know this.

                                                      fae

                                                        sf is strong but not op

                                                        SENSITIVE SNOWFLAKES

                                                          A) pro players, who are better than you, say differently

                                                          But they are playing in a highly coordinated environment, where certain abilities are better than others. Sub 4k games are not coordinated, I could play the same hero every game sub 4k and win 80% of my games (ember spirit, or TA)

                                                          B) then how to you explain the differences in win rates between heroes within a bracket

                                                          Just logically, if hero doesn't matter in low brackets then all heroes in that bracket should be all clustered around , if not exactly at, 50 percent. But they are not. Hell, forget Herald, I don't even ever had to have played a game of Dota to know this.

                                                          Because yes, some heroes do 'counter' others, and make the game easier, but if you are countering, just to counter, it doesn't mean you're going to win, especially if you don't know how to play the hero..

                                                          I've played TA into people who pick viper, just cuz 'viper counters TA lul' but they don't fully understand the matchup and I end up winning if they aren't that good of a viper.

                                                          Upgrayedd

                                                            Nice Bro- Glad you found success with him. Like I said still playable. GL to anyone who tries it since you could literally play much better heroes and work alot les..

                                                            Exactly. Lots of people in low brackets like to spam sniper. In fact, they are pretty good with him to the point some of them have a 50 percent winrate because they really know how to play him. Now, if they put the same effort into learning a better hero they would quickly rank up.

                                                            Here's the thing: they don't want to rank up. They would rather lose and top the scoreboard than win and be second on the scoreboard, which is why they spam a shit hero like Sniper. The thing is that if they started ranking up they would have lots of games where they'd win but they wouldn't top the scoreboard, so they keep themselves in a lower bracket, deliberately, where they can get lots of kills, which is really the reason they play dota in the first place.

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                                                            Upgrayedd

                                                              But they are playing in a highly coordinated environment, where certain abilities are better than others.

                                                              No, they say that about *low bracket* games. Players with much higher skill and understanding of the game than you explictly say that hero picks matter in low brackets. Since, MMR is your metric for what advice to follow, why would I follow your advice when someone who, by your own metric, knows more about the game than you do gives different advice.

                                                              By your own reasoning i should listen to them and not to you. Your own reasoning.

                                                              Sub 4k games are not coordinated, I could play the same hero every game sub 4k and win 80% of my games (ember spirit, or TA)

                                                              if they did that then they would quickly rank up, but they don't. Why not? Because hero picks matter, per people with, again by your own metric and reasoning, much more understanding of the game then you.

                                                              Here's the thing: they don't want to rank up. They would rather lose and top the scoreboard than win and be second on the scoreboard, which is why they spam a shit hero like Sniper. The thing is that if they started ranking up they would have lots of games where they'd win but they wouldn't top the scoreboard, so they keep themselves in a lower bracket, deliberately, where they can get lots of kills, which is really the reason they play dota in the first place.

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                                                              Upgrayedd

                                                                @1v5

                                                                BTW, this topic has veered into the general realm of philsophy, the academic sort. I have a PhD in philosophy so you're welcome to debate analytical philosophy with me - but you're not gonna win. Notice how I took your own reasoning and metric and used it against you? yeah, that's how philosophy works.

                                                                Upgrayedd

                                                                  Sub 4k games are not coordinated

                                                                  This is the logical fallacy known as a non sequiteur. it does not logically follow that since sub 4k games are not coordinated, therefore, all heroes are equally good in that bracket. The premise and the conclusion are unrelated to each other. Further, your contention that sub 4k games are not coordinated is simply false, it's just that lots of people in sub 4k games are simply uninterested in team coordination.

                                                                  I see sub 1k players with good mechanics and understanding of their heroes, but the thing is that they just couldn't give a rat's a** about what the rest of their team is doing. Such players mainly just want to run around and get kills and really don't care about winning and ranking up. They, literally don't care about winning. The reality is that around 5 percent of my games manage to have at least 3 players who are very cooperative with one another who do coordinate with their team. Yeah, it's not that common but it does happen. So you're contention is simply false. it's not like 3.9k games have zero coordination while 4.1k games have tons of coordination. Team coordinaton simply gets better and more common the higher you go.

                                                                  That games in lower skill brackets than you have less coordination does not mean those games have no coordination.

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                                                                  Illyasviel

                                                                    giggles

                                                                    Upgrayedd

                                                                      Think about it this way:

                                                                      A) hero picks in low brackets don't matter
                                                                      B) by logical extension, hero positions don't matter
                                                                      C) therefore, you should be able to play any hero in any position in low brackets

                                                                      So, you need to explain why over 40 heroes have zero games playing mid in low skill brackets. Further, if you think the spread of winrates is big, in general, then you need to explain why they get even bigger for specific lanes. Rubick, for example has around a 35 percent winrate playing mid in low skill brackets. I mean, if hero picks don't matter then how do you explain that Rubick only wins slightly more than one-third of his games in mid?

                                                                      SENSITIVE SNOWFLAKES

                                                                        BTW, this topic has veered into the general realm of philsophy, the academic sort. I have a PhD in philosophy so you're welcome to debate analytical philosophy with me - but you're not gonna win. Notice how I took your own reasoning and metric and used it against you? yeah, that's how philosophy works.

                                                                        lul

                                                                        By your own reasoning i should listen to them and not to you. Your own reasoning.

                                                                        Are you implying that your normal skill games are just as coordinated as a pro game?

                                                                        No, they say that about *low bracket* games. Players with much higher skill and understanding of the game than you explictly say that hero picks matter in low brackets. Since, MMR is your metric for what advice to follow, why would I follow your advice when someone who, by your own metric, knows more about the game than you do gives different advice.

                                                                        Yes, but they aren't playing in pub-land. So your way of thinking is to braindeadly follow pros instead of experimenting and learning what works? Do you even know the pro's logic behind picking certain heroes? Most likely not.

                                                                        By your own reasoning i should listen to them and not to you. Your own reasoning.

                                                                        I'm not even sure what you mean by this. Unless you are playing at the highest skill of dota (obviously not since you're normal skill), then hero picks do not matter (provided you still pick a hero within that role). I can play the worst mid matchup versus normal skills and still win, based on skill, not the counter matchup.

                                                                        To think that one hero counters another and there is no way to play around it is mind-numbly dumbfounded. There's so many items that can help you, allow you to outplay your opponents. The storm spirit has an orchid? Buy a euls. There's a silencer? Buy bkb or any purge item.

                                                                        A) hero picks in low brackets don't matter -
                                                                        B) by logical extension, hero positions don't matter
                                                                        C) therefore, you should be able to play any hero in any position in low brackets

                                                                        A- Correct. They don't matter, perhaps dont take this too literally, don't pick a 5 man support team if your enemy has 5 man carry.
                                                                        B- Incorrect, this is actually the most important part of dota, and is how you outplay countered matchups. Nice try, but your Ph.D in the most useless branch of studyhas failed you.
                                                                        C- You can play any hero in in any role. Check my dotabuff, I recently played an offlane ember spirit game and won.

                                                                        So, you need to explain why over 40 heroes have zero games playing mid in low skill brackets. Further, if you think the spread of winrates is big, in general, then you need to explain why they get even bigger for specific lanes. Rubick, for example has around a 35 percent winrate playing mid in low skill brackets. I mean, if hero picks don't matter then how do you explain that Rubick only wins slightly more than one-third of his games in mid?

                                                                        What are you smoking? Every hero has been played in every lane ever. If rubick mid doesn't win, it's most likely because rubick isn't a hero that carry's games (i.e. not a mid hero unless you're godlike on him). I think you are taking the 'hero picks don't matter' argument a little too literally. Obviously a 5 man carry team will win versus a 5 man support team in lower mmrs., when most people say that, they are referring to heros that traditionally counter other heroes WITHIN THEIR ROLE , i.e. TA vs Invoker or OD vs Ember. Don't pick a support mid, then get stomped by the midlaner and wonder why you died

                                                                        TL;DR: 5 man carry team wins over 5 man support team in low skill because carries hit harder. But if you pick a hero that aligns with your role, (you pick a carry, a mid, an offlaner, a roamer and support), then hero picks don't matter. If you fail to fulfill this criteria, then yes, hero picks matter.

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                                                                        Protoss player

                                                                          The worse is that you are both right : hero picks matters if executed as it should be whatever the bracket.

                                                                          Your 'Viper counters TA' example summarized it all.

                                                                          Even if Viper is a low skillcap hero, the guy needs to understand the TA matchup to effectively counter her. Specially with the nethertoxin 14 secondes cd and the jungle changes (TA can farm mid + ~1.5 camps per minute while staying near mid).

                                                                          Fuka suginai o nīchan

                                                                            Bloodseeker, slark and ursa should win you most of the games.
                                                                            BS is pretty good vs Void spirit who is spammed right now, and can build an early abyssal which is the top tier item right now.

                                                                            one

                                                                              Lol why put stuff in quotation for? When you're picking the arguments out of context just to have a rebuttal.. lol

                                                                              @1v5

                                                                              ShiftingSkys

                                                                                Most of what you said 1v5 does not make sense. I have seen 5 man Support teams dumpster 5 man carry teams. The other day we ran CM, Leshrac Pudge, Pugna, Snapfire. We dumpstered Lion, Bounty Hunter, NightStalker, Viper, TerrorBlade.
                                                                                I have laned some ridiculous stuff like CK nid when they pick Ember or TB middle vs PL. I have done AA mid vs Alch. If the match up is favorable it doesn't matter what hero you pick as lnog as you itemize properly. Most of the best counters are item based anyway.
                                                                                As far as I'm concerned Hero picks even in low bracket have a MASSIVE impact on the game without the players realizing it because they are such low skill they cant realize it. Most heroes have a low win% for a reason. Its like I stated with SF there is a reason in all brackets he is just unsuccessful. Its not by magic that despite his 50K games he still has 45% win-rate. Sure there are players who master him and have even an 80% win-rate with him but its not the norm.

                                                                                SubscripToPeuDiPay

                                                                                  Magnus mid boyss. Easy aghanim easy win. gj Icefrog

                                                                                  Upgrayedd

                                                                                    @1v5

                                                                                    The contention that "hero picks don't matter in low brackets" isn't wrong, it's just you lying. How do I know you are lying and know it? Because I have repeatedly pointed out the following reasoning:

                                                                                    PREMISE: hero picks don't matter in low brackets
                                                                                    CONCLUSION: all heroes in low brackets have exactly 50 percent winrates (given sufficient sample sizes)

                                                                                    If the conclusion is true then the premise is true, however, the conclusion is false, therefore the premise is false.

                                                                                    Think about it another way. I took a long break from Dota but used to spam Venge back in 7.08ish patch when she was a 50 pct winrate hero. Since I knew the hero very well I started spamming her again when 7.23 came out and saw she was 60 percent winrate I started spamming her again. As she has been nerfed in the most recent patches her winrate has dropped from 60 pct to 55 pct, including in low brackets.

                                                                                    Now, If hero pick didn't matter in low brackets then nerfing a hero should have no effect on winrates in low brackets, yet, it does.

                                                                                    PREMISE: hero picks don't matter in low brackets
                                                                                    CONCLUSION: nerfs should have not effect on winrates in low brackets

                                                                                    If the conclusion is true then the premise is true, however, the conclusion is false, therefore the premise is false. I don't even ever have to have played a single game of dota to grasp such elementary reasoning. As for the reason you offer such a blatant lie the most obvious explanation is that you are, just generally, a malicious human being who derives pleasure from being nasty and unpleasant to other human beings, simply for it's own sake.

                                                                                    Upgrayedd

                                                                                      As far as I'm concerned Hero picks even in low bracket have a MASSIVE impact on the game without the players realizing it because they are such low skill they cant realize it.

                                                                                      Bingo. The mechanics of certain heroes versus other heroes makes it so simply playing the hero in that matchup greatly increases your chances of winning. You don't even have to *know* that counter, much less *know how* that counter works.

                                                                                      Here's a thought experiment: Imagine you have two identical heroes with two identical skill sets, the only difference between the two being that one starts with half the base primary stat compared the other hero. If hero picks didn't matter then both heroes should have identical winrates.

                                                                                      Lol why put stuff in quotation for? When you're picking the arguments out of context just to have a rebuttal.. lol

                                                                                      @1v5

                                                                                      Of course. He's blatantly distorting what I said. Why? Because he's just generally a malicious and dishonest person.

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                                                                                      Upgrayedd

                                                                                        I recently played an offlane ember spirit game and won.

                                                                                        I've never disputed this. If you play Friday nights you'll get a lot of middle aged people playing after a long work week and a few beers. Last weekend I ended up with a 2 man queue on my team who laned together and who were both super drunk. Maybe the lane you were in had two drunk people who took 30 seconds just to figure out what items to buy.

                                                                                        Yours is an anecdote and the proper response is another anecdote. One win with ES in the offlane doesnt mean the hero is reliably playable in that lane.

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