Are Neutral Items a Failed Experiment?
Patch 7.23 was a doozy. In addition to rebalancing nearly every hero, Icefrog dropped a bombshell on us by making neutral creeps drop items. Unlike the introduction of talents which had a mostly positive response, neutral items were met with a ton of backlash. Despite the mixed feedback, Dota players endured the pain as usual and have adapted to the new norm over the last year and a half. Now, with most professional Dota on hold until TI 10, many fans are expecting a fairly sizable update to the game. It’s worth taking some time to revisit larger macro aspects of the game to discuss if they have improved the playing experience.
In theory, neutral items were exciting because they offered the chance to adapt your build on the fly based on what you dropped. Getting to skip some early stats or regeneration items because you found the right neutral was an interesting idea. Extra creativity in Dota is usually a plus. In practice, the effect feels a lot more watered down than expected.
Some items have really awesome synergies with a select few heroes but most are just free stats and regen. It’s not surprising that the most preferred neutral items according to our stats are the simple ones. Paladin Sword adds some damage and lifesteal, Titan Sliver makes you tankier and do more damage while Philospher’s Stone just gives you more gold. Distilled down to their benefits, the majority of neutral items end up in use simply for their basic stats benefits or regen bonuses.
For every cool Ironwood Tree + Timbersaw style combo, where Timbersaw can drop a tree anywhere to Timberchain too, there are about 50 heroes picking up whatever neutral item will give them 150 extra health or two mana regeneration. Because of the exclusivity of the really useful item and hero combos, the system is extremely difficult to balance. The fact that a level one Fairy’s Trinket is often preferable to many of the tier three drops to a Storm Spirit or Zeus is not a great sign.
In all fairness to the developers, there are some really cool interactions and good decisions to make. Sometimes you do choose to have just a bit of extra cast range at 45 minutes and grab a Keen Optic over a tier four item. A lot of the time though it feels like your choices boil down to picking a few hundred HP versus +30 damage. The even less enjoyable decisions are when you’re stuck holding a completely non-interactive item like a Telescope or Ceremonial Robe. Both items are probably extremely good auras but are such a boring concept that most players would rather take the +20 movement speed from a Faded Broach given the choice.
At least other auras like Valdmir’s Offering or Pipe of Insight have a useful build up phase or an active component to them. Speaking of lackluster item impact, some of the neutrals feel like an actual chore to have in the game. Eking out minor efficiency from hot-swapping your Trusty Shovel for free Salves and Mangoes every minute or remembering to hold a Philospher’s Stone while dead doesn’t really feel like a fun or rewarding mechanic.
The initial sparkle of neutral items has definitely fallen off for the average player. Spell casters will almost always grab whatever spell amp item or cooldown reduction option they have. Carries mostly just swap from one damage item to another until they drop a Flicker and free up their boots spot for another damage item.
Even the tier five items which are supposed to be truly wild and game changing mostly follow this same logic. More damage or attack speed to match the level of scaling most heroes will have in a 60 minute game, hurrah! More tankiness to the tanky heroes, yay! More escape to the slippery ones, give me a freakin’ break! Of course, cool interactions do exist and items like Ex Machina, Mirror Shield or Fallen Sky are truly bananas at creating some wild late game situations. At the same time, there’s nothing less fun than losing to an unkillable level 30 Spectre with a Mirror Shield. Too often neutral items make late game Dota more of a slot machine. The grim gambling spectacle might raise the level of intrigue for viewers but rarely delivers the same rewarding experience to the actual players of the game.
Icefrog has never been shy about drastically changing the game and then reverting changes that he or the player base doesn’t like. I’ve always been onboard for sweeping changes to Dota so I initially supported the introduction of neutral items. After over a year and a half of this experiment it’s really hard to objectively say that Dota is in a more fun state with neutrals than without them. What do you think? Is this a change that the All Powerful Frog should roll back?
NICE
No roll backs... More Neutral Items would be fun... More diversity could enable new directions you could go to with your heroes. Sometimes you get just the right item and sometimes it seems that there are no good Neutrals for your use... Anything that makes the game less static is a bonus.
With the TI10 still 3 months away, there could be space to introduce something new for TI10 and especially a great time to tinker with the hero balance. We have been playing 7.29 three months now. Time for a change and not just small tinkering we have been getting in the alphabetical balance releases.
считаю что игры с нейтральными предметами 5го разряда слишком рандомные. от выпавших предметов зависит выиграет или проиграет одна из команд, и никаких шансов на отыгрыш или камбек не будет, если дровке или медузе выпали зеркало или баллиста, а тебе в команду выпал ботинок ://////
yes, please take the neutrals out of the game again. It is just not fun that such an important part is subject to randmoness. there is enough rng in the game already.
No removing stuff, just cram more stuff in. Double down... drop another 20-30 neutral items and a larger branching talent tree.
Don't forget the bulk of the low-mid MMR players tho (me). This kind of mechanic rewards jungling and efficient farming just a bit more, which helps us mechanically ungifted not lose as much MMR in the longrun. Also as a pos 5 getting those extra items as a consolation for people afkfarming or being able to pick up a bonus for stacking and pulling is very pleasant.
I can understand the randomness argument, so maybe that's something that can be addressed and augmented with a more strategic element, akin to talent tree.
Also as an old timer I agree with the sentiment that we need to add dimensions and ways to win the game, not remove them.
lmao no
Telecope is a blast to acquire
they should introduce more, actually, as SoN of DaD enunciates
I don't think neutrals should be totally removed since you get to see (and do) amazing plays that would otherwise not be possible.
A rework is warranted though. Late game dota is total bullshit as it is right now. What was once a tense and epic part of the game boils down to rng now.
There's also stuff like hoodwink+ironwood tree or indeed the caster stuff on caster mids that makes heroes have a massive shift in winrate if they get that specific neutral and that really shouldn't be a thing. Or maybe it's fine who am I to judge but in that case give us gambler with a 50/50 to start the game with double the normal gold or none.
I don't think it should be rolled back, but do rework the system overall. Power spikes at those specific times are a bit janky on both teams. Instead of dropping the full, complete item at random, it should open up to all items being viable, but only a recipe drops.
All items must be completed for use. This lets "broken stats/effects" be viable, since there's actual work in completing the item, at the risk of your current build.
Or alternatively, neutrals drop a secondary currency that is "shared" by the team. When enough currency is reached, the team can purchase the neutral. The currency is only tied to neutrals, as a mechanism to allow control and not rely on item RNG. Each tier unlocks at a certain time, but it's the currency that dictates which one and how many neutrals a team gets. Problem solved.
I like neutrals items, but they need to be reworked so they are less RNG.
Have creeps drop coins and let players spend those coins to buy the neutral item they want.
They add nothing to the game, because both teams get them. Whatever tiny advantage you get from one is offset by the other team having the same.
They are a failed experiment and an attempt by valve to jump on the latest game design bandwagon that rng is good and addictive (slot machine design). They have no place in a strategy game like dota.
I personally love Neutral Items, and find that the variety of drops leads to different build decisions or play patterns for me around the midgame.
Definitely a vote to keep them around, as far as I'm concerned!
yes PLEASE get rid of neutral items, so garbage.
I'd unironically want shared couriers instead of neutral items.
I truly believe that neutral items break the balance, the further it goes, more disbalanced it becomes. How someone from valve allowed random items in a game like dota xdd
Tbh i think that when i lose a game of dota , the last thing i would blame is a bad rng of a neutral item . Yes they can help u a lot , yes there are some rly strong ones , but at the end of the day , except by maybe 60 min tier 5 neutrals ( and even then i think there are far stronger things that will decide the game by that time ) they alone , wont win or lose u the game .
Pretty much agreed.
As this article has covered, on average Neutral Items do not add much to the game other than just free stats here and there. At its worst, it can tip the game balance unfavorably.
For low mmr players this could be a fun thing - akin to playing gacha. For high mmr games where the balance of the game is much more delicate, losing cuz of RNG feels really bad.
Listen Icefrog, don't be afraid to admit your mistakes and revert concepts that have proven to be a failure. Refusing to listen is really not the way to go. After all, you're just a dev, not a God.
lol did the writer lose a game thanks to neutral items before writing this?
It adds a lot more than you said above! What about supports which used to hardly get 3-4 slots mid to late game? Neutral items make them much more interactable and can change their game! Also it makes carries work for them too! Finally they get get rewarded for pulling, warding and protecting carries while they grinding their BF or somthing. It also broke the traditional economy of the game and made more comebacks possible against lane dominators and early pushers. This one change was good!
Neutral items are very cool and interesting, and not at all overpowered. Except for Flicker, but fot that you need tons of luck.
I think it would be better to earn "neutral tokens" which are fully shareable and can be used to "purchase" neutral items. This way a team can select which items would be the best for the team, instead of a random chance that you get OP items or worthless items to the teams' synergy.
I actually love these neutral items, they dont feel overpowered but do spice the game up for me.
Also the mana regen items help out supports a lot in low game so.. i would say its not failed at all
Honestly, the article sounds like your problem (outside of the ultra late game RNG) is more towards design of the Neutral Items itself rather than the idea of Neutral Items. I think some items are a little boring, but the idea behind it is solid. For me at least, 60 minutes is now an objective and that the Tier 5 items are just a way to avoid having games stalemate, which I think is a good thing.
the only thing that sucks about neutral item is the RNG aspect of it
Turn them into regular items. If you want variety on builds, then give the players the option to build any of them.
The game feels like it lacks variety in real early game items atm.
Your right, maybe a storm or a leshrac would rather build and buy a 550 fairy trincket instead of a null talisman.
Maybe a hoodwink and timbersaw would want to build a ironwood tree for 450 gold, where the build up is something like 5 iron branches and a recipe. Instead of whatever other early item.
Most heros in the game currently build one of like seven early items, null, wraith bands, bracers, medallion, orb of corruption, urn, or drums.
Maybe heros would rather build a dead end keen optic rather than buy a ring of basil that they wont build into a vlads or veil.
Mids might voluntarily build a oceans heart because they by far benefit the most from the river regen. For say a build up like a sage mask + ring of regen + a circlet.
They can do lots of things with this, like maybe a imp claw builds into a crystalis, and replaces the broadsword in the build up. Or maybe make it a crystalis and imp claw that are required for a daedalis etc.
Fallen sky should just be an item you can build, meteor hammer + blink + recipe.
Bring back trident as a buildable item. Etc
If you just turned neutrals into regular items, that would increase the hero’s item diversity way more than jungling and hoping for a “good” neutral for yourself.
Reduce the RNG and they are a good addition to the game.
Neutral items are great for POS 4 & 5 players. ...As gold is usually a lot more scant for those two positions.
I really like the idea where neutral creeps drop tokens and players can pick their neutral items. Put side shops back in and let people buy neutral items from the side shops!
Man, they're more game changing then people think. My elder titan 3 with blink dagger/echo sabre with Imp Claw and later on Enchanted quiver? Instant death for carries like SF and Luna. The damage is fucking nuts.
My only gripe with it is just that it turns Dota almost into a luck based game. Like you could be up to their last rax and lose because their pos 4 lina is now knocking everyone out of base with a ballista. Or you get a quiver on a team where your two cores are melee and your mid is like a zeus or a tinker while the enemy team gets a mindbreaker on a bounty that now doesnt have to build for orchid just for that initial silence to stop the tinker from lasering for safety. Like it changes up spikes and self reliability and for lower brackets that can actually just cause massive swings essentially for free.
I think neutral items are quite balanced. What is not balanced, is how they are being dropped. One team can get all 4 or 2-3 items that they really need. And the other team will get useless items for them, or 2 from 4 useless, for example. So i think they should think about balancing how the items are being dropped. I thought about duplicating items. Both teams receive the same items. But it might not be the best idea.
The only items I feel break the game are mirror shield and ballista.
If sniper or Medusa get ballista. You can't kill them.
And mirror shield with linens just makes you immune to anything so it's a gg as well.
Neutral items make the fog of war in doto stronger, as you have to guess not only the enemy's build and position, but their neutral slot too
In the name of Marom, I post this!
I used to dislike the concept of random item drops as well but now i've realized that since all players already have the knowledge about all the items that could possibly drop at each tier, they have become controlled variables rather than pure RNG.
At this point I like to look at it this way:
Since they are controlled variables that everyone knows about, neutral items add a level of depth to the game and dare I say make the game even more skill based.