edit: suddenly a bunch of random 50% win rate nubs, none of whom can manage more than 85 CS (who is the offlane hero at that) in a 30 minute match is a super high level match, as is a Puck who gets 42 last hits.
"4. I clearly was not talking about your farm in the matches where you play support, I'm talking about the matches where you play carry, where you consistently play horribly with not only low CS, but very low KDA too. You have 4 heroes with above 400GPM on average. "
"I picked a hero that can carry (Troll)...but I played it as support"
"Why look...my cs number is low I must be bad at Troll."
I would like to say that some day the "terrible" dota player will learn that the game is more than hitting creeps, but it doesn't appear to be a day in the near future. Also...months later and still no one but Beesa actually achieved getting the first 80 lasthits without missing one in a real game.
-sigh- Relentless, frankly speaking, nobody gets the first 80 because nobody gets a perfect free farm lane in a real game. As long as there is just one off-laner, the carry's presence is required when it comes to trading hits, zoning and ganking. And that results in missing last hits.
If you put forward the hypothetical scenario that the opponents abandon the off lane and focus on jungle/dual mid or whatever, then once they peak at 6 they are definitely going to rotate or push and mess up your day. Getting every last hit you can potentially get is not hard. Most carries at the pub level I play will not miss last hits they shouldn't miss. I can open a lobby game by myself and take free farm with any carry and easily get all the last hits.
As for the comments about your GPM - yes, you are right in that GPM is not everything. However, GPM is a significant factor in the assessment of your game performance especially as a carry. And you cannot deny that your GPM for several heroes, PL for instance, is significantly lower than what is usually required to come online as a carry quickly. I am not making any inferred judgements here, this is merely what your stats show. There could be other things at work, but that is not the point here.
i just beat clairvoyance (a really good player) in a pub with PL; I think if I picked any other carry that wouldn't have been the case. if you can't dominate most of your games with PL you just suck and have a severe case of Dunning Kruger. (only heroes that should give you trouble consistently are timber/gyro/medusa, and even then you can work your way around them, esp. medusa since her mana shield is susceptible to feedback)
what Relentless said is accurate. Your main hero should not be in the center of the fight (unless you're confident you can kill them quickly). Send your images in and wait for them to unleash their repertoire of spells, and repeat. PL's images are disposable (unlike CK, and to a lesser extent Siren) which is what makes him stronger than those 2 as a late game carry. The other scenario is if I have a major gold advantage over their entire team (and can just 1v5 them). Otherwise you need to farm your ass off (in jungle if lane is too dangerous), send illusions to push towers, and know when to back so you don't get picked off by someone with dust/sentries/gem. (You can purge/manta off dust but smart teams will have 2+ people who carry dust)
You don't need a bfury against siren, your images should overpower hers if you're farming properly.
Zenoth nobody gets perfect cs... in part because of the factors you mentioned, but also because it really is that difficult to do. While an excellent 1 in 10,000 player can make it happen in a total free farm, with qblade, against passive bots, or no one, unrealistic scenario...Even the very best in the world struggle to achieve perfect cs in a real game because of the natural limits of the human mind to concentrate on a detailed task for long periods of time.
Getting perfect, or near perfect cs requires focus, clarity, no distraction besides excellent, precise timing and control. These things just can't happen in a real game because there is always something else going on even if no one ganks you or contests your farm. Because of this real pro dota carries miss cs while free farming. If you watch them you will see, they just miss. No one tried to stop them...they just miss some. A truly excellent pub carry player can sometimes get close to 70 of the first 80 with free farm. But its very rare to get more than that. Often an excellent pub carry will have 50-60 with free farm and usually even less because there was not 10 solid minutes of freefarm. That is the point of the whole discussion from months back. When you want to judge someone's farming abilities the only way to really do it is watch the game itself and see how hard it really was to get the cs they achieved. Just going by the stats is really a very inaccurate way to judge it.
My gpms are low compared to my skill level, which is not quite good enough to be regularly near the very top of live games. The reason they are low is that I spend a lot of attention on the map, on rotations, and little on trying to get every lasthit. I am better than about 95% of dota players at the actual mechanics of lasthitting. Compared to some random pub that makes me very very good. Compared to top 1% carry players that makes me pretty bad. I learned when playing inhouse leagues in dota 1 that I would win more games and contribute more to the team if I let those best at the mechanics of lasthitting do it while I controlled the map and the fights and made the team decisions. That is why I do not obsess over achieving lasthits. There is a lot more to the game and I know I can beat people more talented than me while having less resources by making better game decisions.
the bfury was for the spiderlings. as opposed to the bkb, it was for the tide and naga's riptide.
with a health booster, i roughly get around the same hp as a manta would give me, 1.3k is still NOT enough to tank a ravage, riptde , chakram and a 20min holy shit slark.
my team were literally brain dead retards who feeds everywhere they fucking go so how do u expect i get ten million cs by 37 minutes
at 20mins mark the slark is already fat to the point 1 leash fucks me dead , and they are not dumb they carry dusts. what the fuck is wrong with you people
and i actually spent more diffu charges on purging myself of dusts than to kill enemies. how the fuck do i get by without a bkb if they're sticking for 37minutes throughout the fucking game.
i would love to see you shit talkers especially aussie and closer regions to russia come play on sea one day and get your ass whooped by some random singaporean chinese stack
its ok, according to relentless we are all pretty much professional players.
@Ming, you play in the High bracket. Every server is the same until you are playing page 1 games consistently, where there are much less players of that quality on servers like australia.
Relentless is just a horrible player desperate to make himself look better with poor arguments like that.
@Ming I play with Singaporean Chinese stacks. I regularly queue against Fd, Mith, etc. There aren't alot of pro teams left in the SEA scene. Back when China players still queued (and some still do, ZSMJ for instance. I got raped by his stack at least 3-4 times, but we were simply outplayed and I don't blame my pub teammates).
I don't know about brain dead pub teammates but most of the time when I solo queue all pick I get decent teammates.
My latest game, two mith players (verified) on the opponent team. We made them look like scrubs. The snowballing nature of this game brings out the worst in players when they're on the losing side some times, you need to take a chill pill.
Yes, many players are in fact casuals. But the people who complain often expect their teammates to perform like pros, and that's where the problem lies - difference in expectations. The problem is that the complainers themselves tend to be at fault some times too. It's fine to be bad at the game, it's fine to screw up - nobody dictates that you have to dedicate time to it. But expecting all your teammates to be pros can sometimes be too much. People play badly sometimes... live with it.
^I totally agreee with you, the thing is that its stupid to complain at people only because they are bad at the game ..... if you want to complain with something complain with matchmaking.
Personally i dont give a fuck if my team is bad if they are polite people.
they are not bad, they are assholes lol
valve don't know how to figure out noob assholes, and some assholes do perform well sometimes
mm is never gonna make people satisfied lol
@ Schnabelfant, this was from some data that used to be shown in DotabuffPlus a long time ago but is not anymore. Way back in January Dotabuff had their own True Skill Rating based scoring system called the Dotabuff Rating. Initially Valve was going to let them do what they wanted, but then Valve received a lot of complaints about the privacy and changed their minds. So Valve hid over half of the stats by making them private by default. Millions of players have intentionally or through ignorance of the option never turned stats on. So DBR was frozen back in January.
Correlating DBR scores to Valve skill brackets I determined the csing performance tendencies. But that was a long time ago. DBR is has been gone even from DotabuffPlus for a long time and the skill brackets have also been hidden by Valve and dramatically changed since this discussion originally started.
Currently "High" bracket just means above average, and "Very High" means top 25% of MMR. But tedious (and impossible if you don't do it fast) to even determine what skill bracket a game is in now. Finding DBR has been impossible for most of the year.
DotabuffPlus had an additional feature back when DBR functioned where you could see the top 80 games of the week played for each hero. Checking through all those thousands of the very best players on their best games on every hero I found that NO ONE in the ENTIRE WORLD reached 80 of the first 80 lasthits. In fact there were only 2 or 3 games a week over 70. 40-50 of the first 80 lasthits was typical for players in the top few % of MMR scores. The very best pub carries, people who regularly play in the top live pages, can get 60+ but they need free farm to do that.
While I was trying to explain this in the context of item progression choices based on realistic expected csing...some ppl who manipulate the system to play extremely easy games against nubs complained and clamined that they can get all the lasthits anytime they choose. It was a classic case of Dunning Kruger and some of them are still mad about it. Some of them were so desperate to prove they were unrealistically good at lasthitting they faked screenshots and played against Bots trying to do it. I thought it was pretty funny.
I try to let people have a realistic understanding of what is good play and what can be done whenever I get a chance. There is a lot of stat inflation and desperate epeen expanding in dota. If you see someone who has really excellent stats they are nearly always fake. This is because people get matched against equal opponents unless they really are at pro-player level and no-one in the world can compare to them. But plenty of tricks and gimmicks to get around the system Valve tried to create have been discovered and used to achieve unfair games to one extent or another.
Of course there are a tiny tiny handful of players who really are as good as their amazing stats indicate, but the only way to know is to see who they play with and against. If they are getting matched against pro players and still win....that's when you know they are legit elite players. Or on a lower level you can just watch the games and judge the skill level for yourself.
In anything this is always the best way to compare...how do you play against known excellent players?
"A pro carry will usually get 60-70 creeps free farming by 10 min. A free farming carry in a Very High game will usually get 40-50." - http://dotabuff.com/topics/2013-04-03-world-record-for-fastest-farm?page=4
hahahaha
this sums up relentless: http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/d/db/Invo_level_05.mp3
edit: suddenly a bunch of random 50% win rate nubs, none of whom can manage more than 85 CS (who is the offlane hero at that) in a 30 minute match is a super high level match, as is a Puck who gets 42 last hits.
"4. I clearly was not talking about your farm in the matches where you play support, I'm talking about the matches where you play carry, where you consistently play horribly with not only low CS, but very low KDA too. You have 4 heroes with above 400GPM on average. "
"I picked a hero that can carry (Troll)...but I played it as support"
"Why look...my cs number is low I must be bad at Troll."
Very nice Invoker quote...and true.
I would like to say that some day the "terrible" dota player will learn that the game is more than hitting creeps, but it doesn't appear to be a day in the near future. Also...months later and still no one but Beesa actually achieved getting the first 80 lasthits without missing one in a real game.
-sigh- Relentless, frankly speaking, nobody gets the first 80 because nobody gets a perfect free farm lane in a real game. As long as there is just one off-laner, the carry's presence is required when it comes to trading hits, zoning and ganking. And that results in missing last hits.
If you put forward the hypothetical scenario that the opponents abandon the off lane and focus on jungle/dual mid or whatever, then once they peak at 6 they are definitely going to rotate or push and mess up your day. Getting every last hit you can potentially get is not hard. Most carries at the pub level I play will not miss last hits they shouldn't miss. I can open a lobby game by myself and take free farm with any carry and easily get all the last hits.
As for the comments about your GPM - yes, you are right in that GPM is not everything. However, GPM is a significant factor in the assessment of your game performance especially as a carry. And you cannot deny that your GPM for several heroes, PL for instance, is significantly lower than what is usually required to come online as a carry quickly. I am not making any inferred judgements here, this is merely what your stats show. There could be other things at work, but that is not the point here.
i just beat clairvoyance (a really good player) in a pub with PL; I think if I picked any other carry that wouldn't have been the case. if you can't dominate most of your games with PL you just suck and have a severe case of Dunning Kruger. (only heroes that should give you trouble consistently are timber/gyro/medusa, and even then you can work your way around them, esp. medusa since her mana shield is susceptible to feedback)
what Relentless said is accurate. Your main hero should not be in the center of the fight (unless you're confident you can kill them quickly). Send your images in and wait for them to unleash their repertoire of spells, and repeat. PL's images are disposable (unlike CK, and to a lesser extent Siren) which is what makes him stronger than those 2 as a late game carry. The other scenario is if I have a major gold advantage over their entire team (and can just 1v5 them). Otherwise you need to farm your ass off (in jungle if lane is too dangerous), send illusions to push towers, and know when to back so you don't get picked off by someone with dust/sentries/gem. (You can purge/manta off dust but smart teams will have 2+ people who carry dust)
You don't need a bfury against siren, your images should overpower hers if you're farming properly.
Zenoth nobody gets perfect cs... in part because of the factors you mentioned, but also because it really is that difficult to do. While an excellent 1 in 10,000 player can make it happen in a total free farm, with qblade, against passive bots, or no one, unrealistic scenario...Even the very best in the world struggle to achieve perfect cs in a real game because of the natural limits of the human mind to concentrate on a detailed task for long periods of time.
Getting perfect, or near perfect cs requires focus, clarity, no distraction besides excellent, precise timing and control. These things just can't happen in a real game because there is always something else going on even if no one ganks you or contests your farm. Because of this real pro dota carries miss cs while free farming. If you watch them you will see, they just miss. No one tried to stop them...they just miss some. A truly excellent pub carry player can sometimes get close to 70 of the first 80 with free farm. But its very rare to get more than that. Often an excellent pub carry will have 50-60 with free farm and usually even less because there was not 10 solid minutes of freefarm. That is the point of the whole discussion from months back. When you want to judge someone's farming abilities the only way to really do it is watch the game itself and see how hard it really was to get the cs they achieved. Just going by the stats is really a very inaccurate way to judge it.
My gpms are low compared to my skill level, which is not quite good enough to be regularly near the very top of live games. The reason they are low is that I spend a lot of attention on the map, on rotations, and little on trying to get every lasthit. I am better than about 95% of dota players at the actual mechanics of lasthitting. Compared to some random pub that makes me very very good. Compared to top 1% carry players that makes me pretty bad. I learned when playing inhouse leagues in dota 1 that I would win more games and contribute more to the team if I let those best at the mechanics of lasthitting do it while I controlled the map and the fights and made the team decisions. That is why I do not obsess over achieving lasthits. There is a lot more to the game and I know I can beat people more talented than me while having less resources by making better game decisions.
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/b/b2/Odest_kill_08.mp3
@pradox , zenoth
the bfury was for the spiderlings. as opposed to the bkb, it was for the tide and naga's riptide.
with a health booster, i roughly get around the same hp as a manta would give me, 1.3k is still NOT enough to tank a ravage, riptde , chakram and a 20min holy shit slark.
my team were literally brain dead retards who feeds everywhere they fucking go so how do u expect i get ten million cs by 37 minutes
at 20mins mark the slark is already fat to the point 1 leash fucks me dead , and they are not dumb they carry dusts. what the fuck is wrong with you people
and i actually spent more diffu charges on purging myself of dusts than to kill enemies. how the fuck do i get by without a bkb if they're sticking for 37minutes throughout the fucking game.
i would love to see you shit talkers especially aussie and closer regions to russia come play on sea one day and get your ass whooped by some random singaporean chinese stack
sea =/= russia or aussie idiots
bear in mind
Relentless said that a free farm carry in very high will only have 40-50 lasthits in 10 minutes. Where did you get those numbers from? :D
its ok, according to relentless we are all pretty much professional players.
@Ming, you play in the High bracket. Every server is the same until you are playing page 1 games consistently, where there are much less players of that quality on servers like australia.
Relentless is just a horrible player desperate to make himself look better with poor arguments like that.
Can anyone here beat my awesome MM streak? Down from +16 to +4 in one day.
@Ming I play with Singaporean Chinese stacks. I regularly queue against Fd, Mith, etc. There aren't alot of pro teams left in the SEA scene. Back when China players still queued (and some still do, ZSMJ for instance. I got raped by his stack at least 3-4 times, but we were simply outplayed and I don't blame my pub teammates).
I don't know about brain dead pub teammates but most of the time when I solo queue all pick I get decent teammates.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/376834597
My latest game, two mith players (verified) on the opponent team. We made them look like scrubs. The snowballing nature of this game brings out the worst in players when they're on the losing side some times, you need to take a chill pill.
i give up lol
i want to make 1% winrate and create new account
There is a lot more of casual players than you guys think in this game.
I am pretty sure that even in high braket there is a lot of casual players.
Not everyone can dedicate so much time to a video game, because this is what dota is .... a videogame.
Yes, many players are in fact casuals. But the people who complain often expect their teammates to perform like pros, and that's where the problem lies - difference in expectations. The problem is that the complainers themselves tend to be at fault some times too. It's fine to be bad at the game, it's fine to screw up - nobody dictates that you have to dedicate time to it. But expecting all your teammates to be pros can sometimes be too much. People play badly sometimes... live with it.
^I totally agreee with you, the thing is that its stupid to complain at people only because they are bad at the game ..... if you want to complain with something complain with matchmaking.
Personally i dont give a fuck if my team is bad if they are polite people.
they are not bad, they are assholes lol
valve don't know how to figure out noob assholes, and some assholes do perform well sometimes
mm is never gonna make people satisfied lol
@ Schnabelfant, this was from some data that used to be shown in DotabuffPlus a long time ago but is not anymore. Way back in January Dotabuff had their own True Skill Rating based scoring system called the Dotabuff Rating. Initially Valve was going to let them do what they wanted, but then Valve received a lot of complaints about the privacy and changed their minds. So Valve hid over half of the stats by making them private by default. Millions of players have intentionally or through ignorance of the option never turned stats on. So DBR was frozen back in January.
Correlating DBR scores to Valve skill brackets I determined the csing performance tendencies. But that was a long time ago. DBR is has been gone even from DotabuffPlus for a long time and the skill brackets have also been hidden by Valve and dramatically changed since this discussion originally started.
Currently "High" bracket just means above average, and "Very High" means top 25% of MMR. But tedious (and impossible if you don't do it fast) to even determine what skill bracket a game is in now. Finding DBR has been impossible for most of the year.
DotabuffPlus had an additional feature back when DBR functioned where you could see the top 80 games of the week played for each hero. Checking through all those thousands of the very best players on their best games on every hero I found that NO ONE in the ENTIRE WORLD reached 80 of the first 80 lasthits. In fact there were only 2 or 3 games a week over 70. 40-50 of the first 80 lasthits was typical for players in the top few % of MMR scores. The very best pub carries, people who regularly play in the top live pages, can get 60+ but they need free farm to do that.
While I was trying to explain this in the context of item progression choices based on realistic expected csing...some ppl who manipulate the system to play extremely easy games against nubs complained and clamined that they can get all the lasthits anytime they choose. It was a classic case of Dunning Kruger and some of them are still mad about it. Some of them were so desperate to prove they were unrealistically good at lasthitting they faked screenshots and played against Bots trying to do it. I thought it was pretty funny.
I try to let people have a realistic understanding of what is good play and what can be done whenever I get a chance. There is a lot of stat inflation and desperate epeen expanding in dota. If you see someone who has really excellent stats they are nearly always fake. This is because people get matched against equal opponents unless they really are at pro-player level and no-one in the world can compare to them. But plenty of tricks and gimmicks to get around the system Valve tried to create have been discovered and used to achieve unfair games to one extent or another.
Of course there are a tiny tiny handful of players who really are as good as their amazing stats indicate, but the only way to know is to see who they play with and against. If they are getting matched against pro players and still win....that's when you know they are legit elite players. Or on a lower level you can just watch the games and judge the skill level for yourself.
In anything this is always the best way to compare...how do you play against known excellent players?
I am getting tired of people who always thinks they are the best ..... funny thing that those usually are the ones who smurf.