You really can't "farm as 5." Slark will take the lane, then rotate to the jungle when the lane gets too far, leaving nothing for anybody else. Meanwhile you're ignoring two lanes and the enemy jungle, so you're getting outfarmed at least two to one, and out-exp'd by an amount at least as substantial.
So any situation where you can't push (no Aegis, no Omni, no Slark ulti) means you have to sit back and lose ground until those flaws are corrected. And you need a method to tank towers early, because otherwise your 5man strat gets stopped by KotL or anybody with similar counterpush. Even if you *can* tank the tower and the counterpush, if the enemy doesn't want to fight, you'll be losing 2 lanes to their 1, because you have to go everywhere as five *and they don't*.
4 protect 1 was a rare enough strat before the patch made "hard" carries more difficult to play. You're putting all of your eggs in one very fragile basket.
You also straight up lose to Naga Siren, who can just sing and then Slark gets to try and 5v1 while unable to run away because net doesn't care about your magic immunity. And you can't make too much of an effort to gank key supports before an engagement, because again, you have to run everywhere as 5.
You're looking at this situation from the wrong angle. You're seeing DR and thinking, "How can I make this work?" You should look at Slark and think, "What items complement this hero's skillset?"
You're missing the point, Dark Seer relies on his abilities not just items.
All picks but carry have to be able to maintain [u]strong game presence[/u] through the entire match, from start to finish.
Let's take a look at Dark Seer for example.
Potential of Dark Seer: - Has decent escape and iron shell, which makes him viable in solo offlane vs anything
- Fast levels in solo offlane turn him into a good roamer extremely fast
- Fucks up enemy carry by denying easy access to last hits (Iron shell)
- Able to farm quick items and be even more useful in team fights (Mech, sheep etc...)
- Able to setup wombo combos by using Vacuum (Jakiros icewall + Vacuum + Wall of replica + Team Follow up)
- Can use his abilities to save allies and punish enemies thought the entire game
I'm pretty sure Dark Pact will remove them both. So you run in with your repel'd slark, he ulti's...Naga screams. People run from slark for a few seconds, then he gets netted. Slark Dark Pacts, then takes a nap for another 2 seconds because he lost magic immunity and the other team positions themselves in the remaining 1-2 seconds of song. Repel is on cooldown for another 5-6 seconds, which is plenty of time to stun and murder a Slark. And then the rest of your team, which is underleveled and underfarmed, gets to...sleep with the fishes.
Sampson:
If rapier slark dies, yes you lose, granted.
You don't always know where they all are. When you do, split up; when you don't, group up and run.
They can't only in the sense that you will push and demolish towers really fast with a rapier.
@Fame: Drafting is probably the most important part of the game, but I think most of us are evaluating this with the assumption that he gets most of the heroes he needs through the draft...because the premise itself is ridiculous enough without bringing in the feasabiliy of setting it up. And if you pick Slark and they ban Omniknight, you can always just play conventional Slark. At the draft stage, strategies aren't set yet.
@Shawn: If Slark doesn't go in until you get your perfect initiate that catches the key heroes that can stop him, you exacerbate your weakness to RatDota. Every second you spend waiting for the enemy team (who are competent professionals) to make a positioning mistake that loses them the game is a second that Furion is getting closer to rax. Now your strategy is more about abusing teamfight ultimates than sticking a Rapier on Slark, because if Enigma or Tidehunter get a great initiate off, then you're already most of the way towards winning the teamfight...and a Gyrocopter or Luna or Faceless or any number of heroes would *still* be better able to take advantage of it than Rapier!Slark.
Random things to consider (I can't think straight atm, these aren't counter arguments):
Visible heroes are vulnerable to fiend's grip, roar, etc
Could just ban these heroes that can stop you? I mean Naga is already banned a lot anyway.
And you don't have to wait for an opening, you force one by hitting towers? It's pretty hard to stop tide ulting.
Sorry it's 5am in Aus, I need to get to sleep if I want to make sense.
I will return in 12 hours and respond properly.
Fame, the problem with bringing the draft into things is that it vastly increases the complexity of the argument without actually addressing the core issue of whether or not the strategy itself works. Implementing the strategy at all is contingent upon getting the specific hero composition, which isn't even that unreasonable. Slark + Omni + Initiaty Teamfight Hero.
Before considering banning the strategy out, you'd have to determine whether the strategy is *worth* banning out. If you see Slark + Tidehunter as the first two heroes, is it worth banning Omniknight? Or should you prioritize Naga Siren, Dark Seer, Jakiro, and Gyrocopter...the usual teamfight suspects?
I'd rather ban out the teamfight team and let the Omniknight through, because this strategy simply isn't intimidating.
This thread has several explanations why Slark divine rapier rush wont perform very well, OP didn't pay much attention to it.
No point in repeating the same thing over and over again. As for drafting, it's an extremely important part of competitive Dota and you should NEVER skip it.
because they pick it on a game that was already won
http://dotabuff.com/matches/370475126
the new meta on invoker isnt massing branches he just sold all his items
Sampson: All I said was that if in the rapier strat Slark didn't die in more than 50% of the games, it was a winning strategy.
i understand why he wins when he picks up divine. there's probably an 85% plus winrate for any hero who picks it up. but they get the item late game.
nm, cm wins 84%
Yeah I think we can all agree hopefully that a dotabuff winrate with rapier doesn't show the power of the item properly. (Less powerful obv)
the data is not a true reflection on the item. Buying a rapier when the other team has no racks is quite common
You really can't "farm as 5." Slark will take the lane, then rotate to the jungle when the lane gets too far, leaving nothing for anybody else. Meanwhile you're ignoring two lanes and the enemy jungle, so you're getting outfarmed at least two to one, and out-exp'd by an amount at least as substantial.
So any situation where you can't push (no Aegis, no Omni, no Slark ulti) means you have to sit back and lose ground until those flaws are corrected. And you need a method to tank towers early, because otherwise your 5man strat gets stopped by KotL or anybody with similar counterpush. Even if you *can* tank the tower and the counterpush, if the enemy doesn't want to fight, you'll be losing 2 lanes to their 1, because you have to go everywhere as five *and they don't*.
4 protect 1 was a rare enough strat before the patch made "hard" carries more difficult to play. You're putting all of your eggs in one very fragile basket.
You also straight up lose to Naga Siren, who can just sing and then Slark gets to try and 5v1 while unable to run away because net doesn't care about your magic immunity. And you can't make too much of an effort to gank key supports before an engagement, because again, you have to run everywhere as 5.
You're looking at this situation from the wrong angle. You're seeing DR and thinking, "How can I make this work?" You should look at Slark and think, "What items complement this hero's skillset?"
that makes no sense if ANY carry never dies they are at a higher chance of winning
@Shawn
You're missing the point, Dark Seer relies on his abilities not just items.
All picks but carry have to be able to maintain [u]strong game presence[/u] through the entire match, from start to finish.
Let's take a look at Dark Seer for example.
Potential of Dark Seer:
- Has decent escape and iron shell, which makes him viable in solo offlane vs anything
- Fast levels in solo offlane turn him into a good roamer extremely fast
- Fucks up enemy carry by denying easy access to last hits (Iron shell)
- Able to farm quick items and be even more useful in team fights (Mech, sheep etc...)
- Able to setup wombo combos by using Vacuum (Jakiros icewall + Vacuum + Wall of replica + Team Follow up)
- Can use his abilities to save allies and punish enemies thought the entire game
Pride:
Good points. I guess maybe you could split up when you have vision of where all the enemies are, slark could 1v1 anyone so he'd be alright.
Also, very good find with naga. However, does anyone know whether dark park dispels repel or ensnare?
Also Slark is alright early mid game, he is still just a normal Slark before the rapier pickup after all.
if your carry never dies
if you always know where they all are
if they cant split push against you
you will prob win.............with any fucking hero.........
5 man farm does not leave much room for supports to gain gold for wards
I'm pretty sure Dark Pact will remove them both. So you run in with your repel'd slark, he ulti's...Naga screams. People run from slark for a few seconds, then he gets netted. Slark Dark Pacts, then takes a nap for another 2 seconds because he lost magic immunity and the other team positions themselves in the remaining 1-2 seconds of song. Repel is on cooldown for another 5-6 seconds, which is plenty of time to stun and murder a Slark. And then the rest of your team, which is underleveled and underfarmed, gets to...sleep with the fishes.
*glasses*
Yeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
Sampson:
If rapier slark dies, yes you lose, granted.
You don't always know where they all are. When you do, split up; when you don't, group up and run.
They can't only in the sense that you will push and demolish towers really fast with a rapier.
I like how everybody ignores drafting phase.
*glasses off*
Slark doesn't go in at all until tide/enigma intitiates?
Also can you pounce dodge net? Like while in flight?
@Fame: Drafting is probably the most important part of the game, but I think most of us are evaluating this with the assumption that he gets most of the heroes he needs through the draft...because the premise itself is ridiculous enough without bringing in the feasabiliy of setting it up. And if you pick Slark and they ban Omniknight, you can always just play conventional Slark. At the draft stage, strategies aren't set yet.
@Shawn: If Slark doesn't go in until you get your perfect initiate that catches the key heroes that can stop him, you exacerbate your weakness to RatDota. Every second you spend waiting for the enemy team (who are competent professionals) to make a positioning mistake that loses them the game is a second that Furion is getting closer to rax. Now your strategy is more about abusing teamfight ultimates than sticking a Rapier on Slark, because if Enigma or Tidehunter get a great initiate off, then you're already most of the way towards winning the teamfight...and a Gyrocopter or Luna or Faceless or any number of heroes would *still* be better able to take advantage of it than Rapier!Slark.
There is no point to use that premise while avoiding drafting phase.
in all fairness I would not ban a omniknight ever........
great!
that's a great dual smurf stack strategy.
thanks for the info. gonna try this tonight.
Random things to consider (I can't think straight atm, these aren't counter arguments):
Visible heroes are vulnerable to fiend's grip, roar, etc
Could just ban these heroes that can stop you? I mean Naga is already banned a lot anyway.
And you don't have to wait for an opening, you force one by hitting towers? It's pretty hard to stop tide ulting.
Sorry it's 5am in Aus, I need to get to sleep if I want to make sense.
I will return in 12 hours and respond properly.
And it's still stupid, all they have to do is bkb, wait out your team disabling ults and then pound slark. Early skadis is probably more effective.
Fame, the problem with bringing the draft into things is that it vastly increases the complexity of the argument without actually addressing the core issue of whether or not the strategy itself works. Implementing the strategy at all is contingent upon getting the specific hero composition, which isn't even that unreasonable. Slark + Omni + Initiaty Teamfight Hero.
Before considering banning the strategy out, you'd have to determine whether the strategy is *worth* banning out. If you see Slark + Tidehunter as the first two heroes, is it worth banning Omniknight? Or should you prioritize Naga Siren, Dark Seer, Jakiro, and Gyrocopter...the usual teamfight suspects?
I'd rather ban out the teamfight team and let the Omniknight through, because this strategy simply isn't intimidating.
This thread has several explanations why Slark divine rapier rush wont perform very well, OP didn't pay much attention to it.
No point in repeating the same thing over and over again. As for drafting, it's an extremely important part of competitive Dota and you should NEVER skip it.
@Shawn
Checkout the following:
Components of a Lineup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw2yat5CimY
It's really not that hard to counter a 4 sec invulnerable slark with rapiers. Just get ghost scepters or euls and kite him until you can target him.
question:
what happend a ult'ing slark caught in chrono ball? will he reveal himself like a normal invisible hero riki ? or black smoke form ?