Skywrath has always rocked mid. Who does he lose to? Barely anyone, however he's so easy to gank. A gank is a succesful kill nevertheless if TP rotations comes.
Personally I'd play him as a safelane farmer if there was a Morph/Naga/Somehardcarry mid. Get the midas and bkb up, then you could start rekking.
he was already good as a mid, the concussive shot buff didnt make much damage there, nor as a support since the best skillbuild is always 4-1-4, but the lv 1 seal going from 18% to 30% is a huge damage bonus and basically cancels out magic resistance (technically 33% amp does but w/e). that makes a pretty big difference when trying to get a solo kill at 6/7 with your ultimate, it's basically 1 more arcane bolt's worth of damage.
as a mid though, his weaknesses are still the same, low armour and hp, both initial and gain, and no wave clear, and his strengths are the same too, the hero still works the same as he did previously, just a bit better.
if you're a mid don't get a mek, get veil instead. it's ignored by tons noobs and it gives basically the same stats, attributes, armour and HP regen, but the active is better suited to skywrath than mek. you don't see sand kings or earthshakers getting mek, do you? they get veil too (or they should be).
why? because they want to deal more magic damage, and in the case of es and skywrath, they both have long range spells, and veil has a very long cast range (1000 range and 600 radius means u can weaken someone 1600 units away on the tip of the circle radius)
even as a support i'd still try and get someone else to get the mek, although his int gain is high, his spells are still quite costly, his ult costs a huge ton of mana, and his other abilities are also spammable, so he'll be pressed for mana whether you play him support or mid. mek is better off gotten on a core who is survivable and also has farm priority so you can ensure mek gets used e.g. viper, razor, dark seer, even prophet in some cases.
bloodstone isnt an item to be rushed, even if it is a snowball item. its like bloodstone on tinker, you get it because it's the best mana regen item late game, which you don't need when your ult is at level 1 or 2. rank 3 ult you'd still be fine for regen with a sheep instead.
early/mid game, all you want is mana pool, which is gotten by int items, your ult will give you good burst damage, but you're going to deal more total damage from spamming arcane bolt every 2s in a teamfight, that's where 5k on int items or veil pays off where blood doesn't.
items, almost always arcanes over treads. treads give 8 int, which is nice, but that's 13 more arcane bolt damage, whereas arcanes gives 150 more mana than 8 int, which is 1 extra cast of arcane bolt anyways, and mana pool is what you need most in the early/mid game.
bloodstone's like a last slot item because you only need it when you have aghs since your ult now has 0 cooldown, and you also have a sheep, which although it gives less regen, the active is way more useful. that's already like 10k gold before you think about going bloodstone, don't forget upgraded boots among other stuff.
if i was going to get a bloodstone i'd probably have e-blade, sheep, aghs, arcanes and some other 2.5k item before getting it.
you want smaller items that can easily make the difference in every fight. having veil for 5 fights is way more useful than having point booster + int staff for 4 and having aghs for 1 and you don't even get to double ult anyway cos you're not 16.
tons of smaller items you can get:
force, veil, euls, atos, dagon 1, even casual ghost scepter or ult orb for hex provides some int.
more expensive items that are in bloodstone range but better:
shivas guard, hex, e-blade, upgrading dagon or aghs.
you want to kill people asap because the longer you take, the more time they have to activate bkb.
*slow clap*
you finally figured that out?
fyi the guy wants to play skywrath mage, not play against him.
Cheers for the advice andro, I've been a bit all over the place with what to do as SWM and that clears things up a lot
i could go over it again and separate it into parts if you need any specific help.
TLDR of stuff below
-at level 11, go 4-1-4-1 and save a skill point if you dont have enough mana to use rank 2 ult currently, but you might before you reach 12
-you don't have to get mystic flare at level 6, but the latest you can leave it is at level 8.
also sometimes you dont want ult at 11 if you don't have the mana for it, so like tinker, you can keep skill points spare. because the xp gain required to go from lv 11 to 12 is non-linear and higher than you'd expect if it followed the same pattern as 1-8 and 9-10, you don't want to go 4-2-4-1 in case you end up getting enough gold to buy a mana item that does end up giving you enough mana for lv 2 mystic flare, conc shot only adds 60 damage while you could be missing out on 400 daamge.
also because the xp gain to go from lv 8 to 9 is steeper than usual (so that supports can catch up to cores during the early game), the latest you can get your rank 1 ult by is level 8 if you'd benefit from something else at level 6, or you just skilled incorrectly, delaying arcane bolt for example.
item for SWM maybe
eul (mana regen + MS)
orchid (work with skill 3 also i think)
arcane (first item)
bloodstone
bloodstone isn't theory, it's shit early, a scythe of vyse is literally better in all regards prior to level 16 or even veil, bs gives you 0 extra damage and you can't ult twice even with it if its rushed.
if you have bots early, why do you need bloodstone, and if you have bloodstone early, why get it when there's so scythe, atos, e-blade or even aghs. you get a bloodstone first, then what. your ult is still limited due to its cooldown since you're pre 16 and you dont have aghs, and you don't need bloodstone to spam arcane bolt enough times to kill someone, you just need mana pool from int items. atos is 2k cheaper and you're getting 75 mana less.
bloodstone provide mana and health since SWM health really bad, but if he have good positioning ur comment will far more better
since i stuck in 2,5k mmr with idiot carry
Q-W-E-R = Out of mana and you know that, if you are snowballing bloodstone will give you so much later, with bloodstone after a combo you can get mana back without bloodstone you need to go back to base.
Bloodstone lets you be in the map 100 % of the time, plus you can survive a bit more ( you dont need a fucking bkb in a pub with this hero unless they¡ir entire team has stuns and shit )
Winrate of bloodstone in SWM = 75 %, you can theorycraft all you want but bloodstone in this hero will still win games.
Btw i mean bloodstone OR BoT, because with BoT you can go to the fights and its easier to go back to base ( a thing you do a lot with SWM without bloodstone )
> bloodstone provide mana and health since SWM health really bad
so does atos and it's cheaper, and actually helps you get kills. early bloodstone literally does nothing more than any other item you could have gotten instead.
health alone doesn't help when your armour is shit, you're still really easy to kill. ghost scepter to block physical or force for repositioning are far better survivability items even if they don't give any HP
force + atos or ghost + atos will make you much harder to kill than bloodstone and will give you basically the same mana pool.
if you're stuck in 2.5k mmr it's because you're building shit like bloodstone instead of cheap items so that you can crush the early/mid game which you can't do with bloodstone because it does nothing. no damage, no disable, and doesn't give better survivability than other items that you can get on skywrath.
I guess right, but SWM doesnt need any items to kill anyone in mid game anyway.
I wish i could see winrate by bracket, but i am so sure that bloodstone on this hero has the same winrate in higher brackets, and please dont come with that awful argument about a item being bad in high mmr cause we all know that pubs are pubs, the same way that riki works really well against 5k 6k or 7k players.
Anyway you already know my opinion, i dont think you need any items to kill someone with SWM and that its the reason that i get bloodstone.
lol, i stuck in 2,5k mmr because retarded feed carry
also i'm in role support. I don't care if i die a lot, or kill a lot. Just want to destroy their ancient
bloodstone 5k, travels 2k. take your pick.
you don't need a bloodstone early, ive seen merlini on skywrath, and when he goes travels early, he gets int items namely null talis because he's spent 2k gold on non-int items. that's 2k gold, not 5k gold.
"Bloodstone lets you be in the map 100 % of the time"
if you have no damage to begin with, e.g. because you didnt go veil / vyse / e-blade or aghs, then bloodstone doesn't help. if you don't have to return to base because you can regen mana, then you're sure as hell going to have to go back to base to defend your raxes solo because you just lost a fight.
mana regen on its own does fuck all. why do you see skywraths getting atos, force, veils or euls before bloodstone? because they want utility and/or damage. bloodstone's sole purpose is mana regen, and if there is another item that can provide it, that makes bloodstone unnecessary because that other item has other effects besides just giving you mana e.g. a 3.5s disable so you can actually land your damn flare.
if you lack int then your arcane bolt lacks damage. if you dont have aghs and you're not 16 either, mana regen does nothing for your ult because it's limited by cooldown now, all the mana regen in the world does nothing if you can't spend it. bs gives no int, atos does. bs gives excessive mana regen that could be gotten from a scythe of vyse which gives less regen, but still enough regen at that point of the game.
bloodstone has a 75% winrate, but thats because you're already winning when you have the item. where is the proof on the DB stats page that it is a FIRST item, and because of it's quick acquisition, it causes games to be won. gem of true sight has a better winrate, therefore gem is better than bloodstone. aegis has a better winrate too, lets start stealing spectre's aegis 80 minutes into the game.
the 25% of losses are probably because of the fucking retards that rush the bloodstone and have nothing else to show at the end of the game. the wins are due to said players also having scythe of vyse, hex, aghs and e-blade along with the bloodstone as a last item. bloodstone does not win games. it's the items that you get before bloodstone that win the game, and bloodstone is simply on the end game stats.
DB item winrates means fuck all because they're skewed by how a game is already progressing. there are times where you do well early because you went veil + force which lets you get a bloodstone, hex, et cetera, that doesn't mean the bloodstone by itself won the game. conversely there are games where the early game items don't help because you were already in a losing situation, which means the cheaper items that you can afford go down in winrate, but the more expensive items don't because you couldn't afford them anyway.
if you still want to pull the retarded db item winrates argument, scythe of vyse has a marginally better winrate, same with shivas and e-blade, probably because they're do-shit-and-kill-people items. unless it's ultra late game and you have 20+ bs charges, it's not going to be raining mystic flares, and instead you should focus on getting one good amplified flare off on one key target because you're only going to have 3.5 seconds until that person activates BKB, then all that bloodstone mana regen is useless.
to further add to your logic, i have a 100% winrate with heart + satanic recipe. not the item, the piece of paper that does nothing and wastes 1200 gold, which apparently does more for me than an aegis, or a divine, so apparently I should simply be stacking those if I want to win games, not bloodstones.
no bloodstone, heart recipes only, final destination
> you dont need a fucking bkb in a pub with this hero unless they¡ir entire team has stuns and shit
i didn't say BKB was a core item, i said if you're having serious trouble with a pugna, then it's worth getting a BKB so that you can contribute without instantly getting blown up as soon as a fight starts, same reason you get BKB on any hero.
you'd BKB on this hero just like you would with any core if you were constantly getting focused by disables or nuke damage.
Why would you get a bloodstone late game when its hard to get charges ?
The winrate in items is based on what items you have when you win, you are right about this, but you cant imply that people is getting bloodstone after some utility items, you CANT know if they are getting early or later and for me it makes more sense getting bloodstone like 1º or 2º item ( and that its what i see usually in pubs ).
Dagon 5 has bigger winrate than Hex on tinker, you know what that means ? that means that you are playing fucking pubs and if you are getting hex there is a good chance that your team is not going to burst down the guy who is hexed, it means that its WAYYYY easier to win with dagon 5 in a pub than with hex.
The same with bloodstone, again you are saying that those utility items makes killing easier and i agree with that, but you dont NEED anything except the hero itself to kill something with SWM, E>W>Q>R>Q dead enemy hero with Atos or wtihout Atos.
Like i was saying before i am pretty sure that if OP got bloodstone in a pub game 1º or 2º (if he needs forcestaff) he would have more chances to win.
Shadow blade is a awful escape mechanism, still has big winrate with the typical SB heroes, you know why ? because is pretty good on pubs even when in paper should be awful.
bloodstone simply makes it worse because you'll be casting spells more often.
nether ward makes skywrath's life hell, whether he has a bloodstone or not. if you want to alleviate your damage, don't spam more flares, do less flares that are amplified due to e-blade and veil and silence. you'll be doing the damage of 2 flares from 1 flare cast and something like 400 mana less.
unless you're steamrolling the enemy team you will probably have to get BKB for teamfights against the nether ward, unless you have PL illusions who can zerg rush the ward down for example.
bloodstone is a shit rushed item because skywrath is a strong early/mid game hero where small items make the difference in fights. that's not a discussion. it's good end game because skywrath is damage only limited by his mana regen due to his 0 cooldown ultimate when he is above level 16 and has aghs.
Oh well i guess we are never going to get anywhere, for example i hate aghs so much in SWM and i think is awful
So yeah OP my opinion is pretty simple, you are going to kill people with or without items, the difference for me is if you are going to have mana to kill more people after.
you get a bloodstone late game because it still gives 200% mana regen, and that 200% coupled with even just a few charges makes it the best item for mana regen. tinker's don't get bloodstone early either, they get it for the purpose of late game mana regen.
if you bothered to read any of my counter-argument, you'd see that bloodstone does FUCK ALL when your spells are on cooldown. i.e. your ultimate. seriously, tell me when you're level 11-15 which is definitely an achievable for a rushed bloodstone, how does it help you get kills?
you're clearly skim reading because I was making a point against DB item winrates mattering. by arguing that dagon % > hex % on tinker, therefore being superior, you're conceding your own dumbass point on bloodstone on skywrath being superior to other items with higher winrates.
if you don't need items to kill people then you were doing well enough before you had bloodstone that it doesn't have an effect, again you're already winning the game and any item you get at this point is just to increase it's winrate on DB, I do that with e-blade on AM, blink and refresher on weaver.
if you hate aghs on him why the fuck are you getting bloodstone, bloodstone is for heroes who are only limited by mana regen because they have spells without cooldowns.
you can't kill people if your shit is on cooldown, what don't you get. keep playing your unranked pubs and stomping casual players.
What ???????????????
I was saying that most of the time the winrate on items does matter giving examples why i think it matters in some cases ( being dagon 5>hex on tinker an example ), you are saying that bloodstone has such a high winrate because people build it on late game and i am saying that they usually build it early, can you prove that people is getting bloodstone later ? No, neither i can prove that they usually build bloodstone early, if people lost so much when they build bloodstone early them the item would have WAY less winrate.
For the last time, this is my logic: You have bloodstone, you go and kill someone, now with bloodstone you go and search for someone else to kill, without bloodstone you go back to base or you try to kill someone without being at full mana.
As a huge fan of Bloodstone, I buy this item on every hero that I play (if I get enough farm ofc). I think this is best item in game.
Hes a mid, wins all mids except for maybe OD, items Atos(or forcestaff if you are pressured)->Hex->Shivas->Bloodstone
The point of this hero you should never run away, the hero sucks at running away, you have to play like a true russian.The only way is forward. Hero is an AMAZING mid, I think has the highest DMG output of all hero in the game surpassing even tinkers.
Example: http://dotabuff.com/matches/572809552
I dont usually write anything here, but i love skywrath :P
I play at 5,3k to 5,7k range and i mostly run him as a support, if possible the 4th position.
The most crucial thing to get with skywrath is early exp, making ur smoke ganks on mid successfull etc.
If u manage to get early lvl 4-5 and boots ur basically guaranteed to secure ganks all over the map.
I think thats the most vital thing with skywrath. As for his items as a support u'd just want mana boots.
If ur the 5th position u wont be getting a mek in time for it to be even slightly relevant. I suggest trying to get a force staff.
I dont run him mid nearly often enough in high level games to really give huge insight, but mana boots and dagger should be ur first 2 items, since u will most likely win ur mid and be the highest lvl on the map, which means u can walk around one-shotting anyone.
Then a rod of atos for hp and guaranteed hit on ult is great, bloodstone isnt half bad. But u would want to look for mana + hp on ur items at the very least. Thats my 2 cents, hope it helped abit or something
Skywrath is cool if he kills early game mid. Otherwise he becomes a useless mage late game. Even worth than a mid silencer or mid invoker. You know those invoker mid who goes 30 minute euls & force staff and like can't invoke crap cuz they went extort build or some shitnit. He falls off immediately once enemy carry get some from of right click like MKB, daedalus or just BKB.
He's not good as a mid like mid silencer or OD. I've seen him lose to slardar, DS, ursa mid!
Per favore Accedi per inviare commenti.
My SWM isn't very good at the moment and I'm looking to play him more, but I struggle to understand where he fits in to a lineup. He's quite a greedy support, but quite an underwhelming core (unless that's just me being bad at him).
Do the recent buffs made to him make him an acceptable mid now? Or should I stick to playing him as a support?
In terms of item builds I can imagine he's a good mek carrier due to the low base armour so being more survivable helps, and force staff is probably a good next core, but what after? If you get some farm priority should I go for the oh-so-debatable bloodstone? Or is something like euls+atos better?
Any advice would be appreciated