General DiscussionWhy does noone build Ursa like Troll?

He has the same kiting issues as troll with lower manfight, more cd reliance, and less siege damage.

His benefit is massive burst damage, and items like sheep and BKB capitalize on his strengths by letting him murder people instead of turning him into a slow ms melee only troll with no bash

Ursa is the best manfighter in the game and I'm want to build him this way exactly because I don't want him to become so dependent on his W.

His kiting issues exist because nobody ever levels Aftershock until mid/late game. That skill slows 55% for 4 seconds with a 6 second cd. Compare that to Troll who has a 5.25 second slow for 30% that deals much less damage and has a down time of 12 seconds. Even then, Troll doesn't get kited much the moment he has phase+sny.

Its precisely because he already has burst dmg that I DON'T want to build on it more. Why not build it so that while he has burst damage, he also has decent attack speed to capitalize on the 6 stacks of swipes he built up? Most Trolls don't get BKB until really late, why? Because they tank up with skadi/sny/satanic. Sny also stops him from getting kited plus he has 475 ms while phased with it. MoM is basically 522 ms.

He's not a slow melee only Troll with no bash. He's a melee only troll with a very consistent slow, is not reliant on proccing a 10% bash and has far higher burst and manfight.

tl;dr it works out in my head so I'm actually gonna try him in Ranked and experiment with bkb+mom OR sny+skadi

well I can agree with you about his Q being really strong, and about skadi being a good late game choice. but he cant man fight a troll unless he has a fairly big lead. and MoM is horrible on him, I'll explain why in detail if you want to hear it, but if you really want to try it yourself then your going to do it anyway.

the troll/kiting comparison isn't really fair, since troll can swap to ranged, and has a built in bash in melee.

I would suggest trying it in unranked first and tweaking your build if it doesn't work out as well as you are hoping.

Ursa basically needs no help with damage.

You may as well get a diffusal blade and use the purge charges for slow or hex. Sure skadi is nice but its more about stats overall...

all ursa needs are brown boots, blink, morbid mask and maybe a ring of armor... rest is just luxury.

Your mom is a luxury. ^

^every mom is luxury.

what happens to insta rosh, if u go for ursa clapping?

People go really hard core damage, or do dumb things like rushing heart or something like helm.

You can do stuff like blink, SnY, Skadi but you will get kited late game unless you have a force or a sheep stick.

Force is something that is missed on Ursa where it would be amazing....and I would consider sheep to be pretty core. Hex is good on a lot of heroes where you wouldn't usually think it that much of a better item over something else, but like...

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1340499402 not a lot of damage output so double hex on the AM substituted for that.

Vyse is a very overlooked item on a lot of heroes IMO

People still build heart on ursa? I have switched to skadi over heart, without ult up it's more dmg and with ult up it's a tiny bit less, plus the slow, plus armor, slightly less hp. But you don't rush it, you just build it as a 5th or 6th item instead of heart.

S&y makes no sense on ursa since you'll be getting a blink or shadowblade to initiate usually. It works on troll cus he gets so much extra move speed from berseker rage and troll likes the maim proc a lot more and the attack speed and hp a lot more. Ursa with overpower doesn't really need much attack speed. What you need on ursa is lockdown, basher, blink/shadowblade, diffusal, scythe.

I think ideal ursa build doesn't really change at all. It's always going to be phase boots, vlads, blink/shadowblade, basher, bkb if needed, abyssal/scythe/skadi. Throw in an occasional mkb if going vs a PA.

Aquila -> Dominator -> BKB -> Skadi is really strong for ursa

@Havoc, I do agree about Scythe. IMO, when it goes ultra-late game, you definitely need abysal + hex +refresher if you got a pesky troll/storm that you need to deal with. Hex also very good on heroes who can spam abilities/items.

duno skadi is a boss on ursa i was following guides at the start but now realized that skadi is way better

problem with ursa is that he is very slot hungry, maybe if you get fast travels you can get something like force staff

Yea... I personally go for basi , morbid, brown boots, blink.

Then I might finish a vlads satanic late game is nice but it is a way late item and not finishing vlads not always worth waiting for satantic. Vlad still > dominator

Regardless, I am most likely looking at going for basher. If I go basher, may as well go abysall, but havoc is right in saying that a hex is arguably just as good. I just think that basher is cheap and does really good work.

I haven't tried MoM but SnY certainly feels worthless.

You HAVE to get Blink as soon as possible otherwise you get kited. And with Aftershock slow + blink, SnY felt pretty useless to me. Skadi is just about 1.5k more gold for much better stats and passive. Early BKB still feels pointless to me to rush because in early skirmishes if you time your blink entry correct, you don't have to worry about disables.

Like the way Zenoth plays his Sven, he doesn't bother getting BKB until much later and rushes stuff like Heart first.

Anyway, my past few games were crap and I can't base anything on them too much other than SnY was a stupid idea. Also, Ursa seldom runs out of mana unless you spam mindlessly so I never really want that Vlad's anymore. Like you said, he doesn't need the damage aura and he has high base armor already so it feels really worthless. Raw Morbid OR Satanic is the way to go I feel.

people cant disable you if they're storm hammered, they can if they're slowed by 50-60%

Yeah s&y just feels wrong. Be like going butterfly on ursa- why? Why do you want agi dmg and attack speed?

I would like to see a force staff + blink ursa sometime though. That might be sweet.

that force staff win rate is so low though, maybe thats because people are getting it instead of blink. Euls/Atos ursa will be new build 40% legit.

Heart is a shit item anyway. With an exception for 2-3 heroes, and Ursa isn't a one of them.

It used to be a good 5th/6th item, lots of dmg with his ult, lots of hp, but now going skadi gets your more dmg without ult and nearly as much with, more armor, slightly less hp, more ias.

SnY is good for early ult boost though, how about a crit on ursa other than basher since going hex would be much more beneficial for team?

Badger has a point, Vyse is great on alot of heroes, especially on Clinkz if he has to be the one carrying against a Troll Warlord

Any hero that has a damage boosting passive, or is generally doing enough damage with 5-slot should go Hex just because it's that great. SnY, Skadi and Vyse sound pretty good for Ursa, Blink, Earthshock, Overpower, potentially have stacked Maim and Skadi slows together and can Hex if they try to fight back or have evasion, like PA.

Skadi on Ursa is just retarded. You spend 5k+ gold on things Ursa doesnt need anyway.

1. HP/attackspeed/mana - he gives -0 fucks about all of this pretty much since his core items/high hp gain provides him good amount of hp

2. Slow? Rly? If you can't slow your target with your 1st spell, don't play Ursa, go play Tetris. And it's not like you need to slow your target that much in order to kill him. No-one can't stand against Ursa in 1v1 matchups if he starts to snowball or if he's got his items and he blinks/slows/attack while target is on CD(spells, items..)

3. Upgrading basher to abysall will give you better lockdown/more dmg then skadi. And that's pretty much what this guy need.

On the other hand, HEX can be situational item on him. and can be good.

4. S&Y is in my opinion amazing item for any snowball hero, so Ursa is kinda natural S&Y user. It gives you all Ursa really needs, and it costs really little compared to an ultimate orb for skadi(2100), you'll get your sange pretty much way faster.

Skadi looks cool, but as already someone mentioned, Ursa is VERY slot hungry, and if you get him wrong items, it can lose you lategame.

And in my opinion, Skadi is wrong item on him.

How lategame should look in my opinion:

1. Dagger
2. Travel
3. Abysal
4. Vlads/Skadi/Madness(depends)
5. Hex/Buter/Heart
6. Force/AC/BKB/SB/mkb

Pretty much, heart is always better option to get over skadi. You turn your ult, you'll get way more dmg then with Skadi, and not to mention if you got your spells on cd, dmg benefit from skadi WONT help you at all.

Heart, lategame, provides him more DMG, more HP to tank dmg, combined with curiass it can be just insane.

So if you want to go Skadi, because of slow(already said you should just stop playing Doto if you can't slow/bash do death with ursa without skadi), ask yourself one more ime what item you won't get? Maybe Abysal?(stupid) or hex? (much better disable then skadi), or maybe buter/heart? Wow, nice. :)

Or just don't fucking get bkb and get skadi, and pray some lion/Tinker/etc wont **** you.

Skadi is more dmg than heart. Skadi is 50.75 dmg from ult, 25 from agi. Heart is 74.2 dmg when ult is up. Heart is 335 more hp but skadi has 3.5 more armor. Effective hp is going to be pretty close. All you lose really is the regen which doesn't matter on ursa cus of lifesteal. There's no reason to go heart over skadi.

And have you ever seen an ursa with ac? I never have, sounds really dumb. If you want armor reduction badass dmg just go deso, if you want attack speed why wouldn't you just butterfly? More attack speed and dmg on an agi hero.

6 slot default ursa:

travel's
blink
vlads/satanic (upgrade to satanic when you get 6 slotted)
abyssal
two of bkb/hex/skadi depending on if you have to have bkb or not, then you have to pick between hex and skadi depending on if you need to lock down a blinker.

I really don't see how s&y or butter or ac is better than any one of those items in any situation.