this coach trend is such a scam~
what could one possibly teach in one hour or even more? u learn how to be good at dota by playing it - with 'experience' or if you play with a sensei for months.
u dont learn shit in one hour, or mb things that have aproximatively 0 impact on the game, like " u shoud hit from uphill to secure lh "
this shit wont make you any better, and you'll figure it out by yourself at some point ANyway.
i hope i helped potential naive future victims by raising awarness with this message.
^ You actually do learn quite a lot in one hour, I've had plenty of students that were satisfied so please stop trying to bash the coaching thing, it's already ignored too much.
I see both your points and both are right. Its like going to a university lecture, you learn something with each lesson but its the consistent learning or self-application that helps you maintain the knowledge.
I have done my fair share of coaching and I think the thing that made me stop for a long time was you would have to retrace your steps with people if they have skipped a lesson for a week or two. I think coaching is only as effective as people are able to retain the information.
Coaching and uni are not the same.
Dota coaching is like tutoring - you pick up on things you slacked or want to improve.
It's not the same as going to university and learning completely new profession. Ironically, if you slack in uni you might have to hire a tutor to pick up the slack :)
just ignore Nova... sometimes I wish people without education could not post on these forums :D
I said a university lecture, not an entire degree. Application still remains. Going to a single lecture doesn't ensure expertise on a module, the same applies to coaching. I feel that one session while helpful, will not help a person as much as a series though they may pick up on some helpful tips and tricks during a session.
It's through continued learning that they will improve, whether through coaching or self-improvement through analysis. Also assuming someone isn't educated because of a difference of opinion on a gaming forum is a little uneducated in itself don't you think?
Of course a good coaching session/tutorial sometimes is better than 200h of pure gameplay. You can make same mistakes over & over again & not be conscious about making them. I have a friend who has 2400 wins (yes, wins not games) & he is 2.5k MMR. He has more gameplay than me, but is 1.7k MMR lower, so it's not like gameplay without training & knowleadge is enough.
For me personally it was a big shock to play against 6k player mid (got coaching from him). I always thought that my laning is quite good, but he showed me how shit I'm xd I thought maybe my decision making was bad, but he showed me that my worst aspect is laning (which I thought was the best one) & decision making is good (which I thought is not that great). Of course it's not like after 1 coaching session you will be a 6k or even 5k player, but you will probably improve & pay more attention to mistakes you make. Coaching also shows you the way how to play - if you play with 3k players 24/7 you will adapt their bad decision making. Coaching is the way to get out of this mentality & shows the way how you can improve. In general I recommend it, if u really want to improve, but there are coaches & coaches. You also need to practice & apply what you've learnt or it will be pointless.
"this coach trend is such a scam~" yes this is just difference in opinion...
Havoc, I understood what you said and I disagreed with your comparison, becuse coaching = tutoring, not lecture. People have coaching/tutoring in uni as well, it doesn't have to be more than hour or few.
Think dota as a whole module, or even a degree with multiple modules, you might be going going to all lectures etc, but maybe you are not so gifted or miss lecture or two and you fall behind. This is where dota coaching comes in, it helps you learn specific thing you dont get, not the whole module.
Dota coaches don't say they going to make you pro in 1 hour, inherently that's not what coaching means at all.
All a coach does is tell someone that he has to " do this cuz this is right and do that cuz this is right "
and the student will assimilate the information like a monkey without fully understanding why he have have to do this, because he didnt found it out by himself in his dota experience and thus, he wont be able to acces that information in a real match situation.
and the reason the students are "happy" is because they think they learned a lot of stuff, but all they did learn is one answer to one particular dota situation.
its called the illusion of knowledge.
its basically like giving the answer to an equation to someone without giving him the calculation.
in order to truly improve you need to understand the root of things, not what to do in x or y situations because those changes all the time.
so yeah unless you coach complete beginners that dont know anything about dota, you wont improve anyone's skill.
and as far as i know, that's the main argument of coaches isnt ? "listen to us and we'll make you better, because we know better "
so this is why i say that the "coach trend" is a pure scam.
they make you think that you learn shit and then you're happy because you think knowing cool stuff will make you improve, but it wont.
Everyone with some dedication and an analytical mind can pick up what you get teached in coaching by themselves. If you lack one of them, coaching might speed up your progress.
But nova is right, some infos are purely situational and it depends on the student to apply it to other situations themselves. Also Havoc is right, coaching can be compared to a lecture in university, you get info but you have to practice and apply it on your own. Some people are improving really fast with it, others need more handholding and more lessons and give me more $$$$$$$
actually chris is the only super good legit coach i know, i recommend ppl to ask for him if they need a coach
Nova, when you speak from assumptions and not facts you provide people with false information. Please stop.
That's exactly what an uneducated person would do.
![AFKnITE[NAVI]#RoadtoAFK](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/e7/e773734ea5f87453933487e0235fbc3fa3b1712a_full.jpg "AFKnITE[NAVI]#RoadtoAFK")
I can vouch for chris though, I have also checked up on some past students dotabuffs.
Those guys play in very high skill now compared to normal/high skill.
Also search "REMOVED" if you want to see one of Chris early coaching sessions. They are quite informative, he has as well improved a lot though after that.
edit: pm chris for videos
Getting better at dota is essentially figuring out what you can do better by trial and error, you make assumptions and test them, some will work out and some won't.
Now, you get a coach, and you have a lesson or two; because he is more knowledgeable he is able to point out certain aspects that you can potentially improve on and gives you suggestions on how achieve it. If you apply his knowledge correctly, over time you will get better at those areas but still it might not even matter in the long run if you have a potato mindset.
If I were to think of an exaple, coaching is like giving financial aid to an underdeveloped country (coach = developed country, student = underveleoped) - the country won't improve economically/socially/politically unless you build the infrastructure (i.e. constructive doto mindset).
Hb.Seto ur a complete dumbfuck.
how could you tell the difference between facts and assumptions if you're a lowbrained ignorant ? *
you said i quote "when you speak from assumptions and not facts you provide people with false information. Please stop.
Tha'ts exactly what an uneducated person would do."
you said some posts ago that i was uneducated, which is an assumption. Now that would make you an uneducated person right ?
you also said that ppl without education should not post on this forum, so if we follow ur own logic you should not post here, yet you do.
Which proves my point, ur a lowbrained ignorant. *
And that my friend is a fact that automatically discredit everything you say or would say in the future.
hehe.
his opinion is as much valid as is yours, if not more. so stop being a douche with all this education nonsense.
edit: nm, you're both douches.
you can't coach people into being 6k players if they are 4k. I have plenty of friends who have/had played dota and we spent millions of hours talking about it, none of them made it. presumably they got better but to what point it depends on a person.
can you make a 3k/4k player a better player by simply showering him with facts? yes. because even 'monkey see monkey do' mindset will wield results. to a certain point that is.
so the summary would be that you are always better off learning stuff yourself. because that's how you actually progress and get better. but even knowing some tidbits in dota is not bad (which is really the selling point of coaches)
no matter how you spin it, it's better knowing stuff even without knowing why than not knowing at all.
Also, those mutltiple posts above about differences between tutoring/coaching/lecture are so pointless, you can just generalise it to 'info from external source' and move on.
Coaching points people in the right direction but they have to take it upon themselves to actually apply the information. I have had numerous people who I have coached who had the wrong mindset going into coaching where they thought it would magically transform their gameplay, and others who have had 1-2 sessions and then managed to get a winstreak. These two things have nothing to do with coaching.
Coaching should aim to identify and fix weaknesses in your gameplay which in turn may allow you to set yourself apart from others in your bracket and move on. I have sat with people who have basically justified their gameplay while I am telling them that what they were doing was wrong, these are the kinds of people that despite coaching won't improve.
* You are actually better off making the improvements on your own.
* If you need a coach then make sure you're understanding why, not just monkey see, monkey do.
* A lot of times coaches will tell you things you already know but are either too bad, or too lazy to execute yourself.
I honestly agree with both sides here, coaching serves a purpose but is often misrepresented as a free MMR ticket. Most coaches offer mid/carry/es/meepo coaching which is honestly pretty dire if you ask me. Does nobody coach supports or offlanes anymore?
Self-taught that some people here are and defend is quite stupid. It does not help you, it's like reading a self-help book.
The person that wants to improve, WILL NOT IMPROVE due to Dunning-Krueger effect. It's like me picking storm after watching blitz guide and blaming my team that I lost because I could not perform under ideal circumstances, whilst Blitz will still carry whilst being 20 kills under.
Same goes for Meepo pickers or other mainers, they get to 6k but can't play any other hero. If they are losing they head to jungle, flash farm and carry with their broken hero. I wish rubberband got removed and 6.78 meta was somehow reintroduced that essentially fucked over so many mainers due to rats and different strats. The mainers are not good and they should never be used as a prime example of a good player.
A coach is essentially what Michael Jordan is to an aspiring basketball player. You'll look up to him and try to replicate his mindset and playstyle. Essentially becoming a good player.
Or you can always spend 1000 hours just to climb 100 mmr. That works too with 51% ranked winrate. Kek.
"You'll look up to him and try to replicate his mindset and playstyle."
this.
also delete my name from your previous post please :@
i dont know any single person in the entire world that is good at dota and have/had a coach.
its simple if u need a coach you are by definition not meant to be good at this game so its pointless to pay a coach to try and help u to improve if you see what i mean~x')
One last thing I wanted to say which is kind of obvious.
NO MATTER HOW CONVINCING OR LOGICAL YOU SOUND, a coach will never agree with you here, and will argue that coaching is the best shit ever; it is obviously counter intuitive for a coach (e.g. Chris & OP) to publicly say anything that will jeopardize his position/public image/potential clients
that depends on why you buy coaching services in the first place
if u want higher mmr then the coach can tell you what to pick and what you should do to win most of your games (item/skill progression, what to do in certain cases, etc.) although ur friends can tell u the same thing for free
ACTUALLY improving? that's pretty hard and mostly on the student
You can learn a lot being coached or just helped by higher people.
Example:
U are 1k mmr and you are focused on ganking on min 3 without boots, people on 1k will call u noob if u stay on mid for 6 min, so u will keep doing thatt doing 0 improvement to your knowledge.
So one day, yor cousin add you, he is 3k mmr and he tell you that u have to buy allways boots as one of the first items, and branches and things are better than 12 tangos.
Aaand one day he told you that you can stck camps at sec 52 etc.
OK, it's basic knowledge, 4k players know all this shit, SO what can say 6k players to 4k?
-When to initiate
-Where are the enemys
-Know where to use habilities
-IDK cuz im not 6k, but im sure a 6k have much more knowledge than a 4k player, and this 4k player can learn from the 6k player. Maybe 1 hour is not enough, but u can still learning from that.
I don't find coaching bad, cuz i have a lot of questions about everything (where to ward, how to timing, when i have to gank, what heros are good against other heros...) and surely a 5k-6k even 4k player could help me.
Even if they don't help you, just play on a higher level can help you, you see how the enemys play. I learnt to play some heros just being owned by higher skilled players.
I was just sleeping guys :D
Anyway, yeah I agree with some of the things being said here, but listen having a 2 hour session with me or some other top coaches @ site at least will be so much helpful than just playing ur normal games where u essentially learn nothing new or nobody tries to even point out the things that u are doing wrong, if u are any, respectively.
Just have to explain this: "Nova´about 3 hours ago
All a coach does is tell someone that he has to " do this cuz this is right and do that cuz this is right "
and the student will assimilate the information like a monkey without fully understanding why he have have to do this, because he didnt found it out by himself in his dota experience and thus, he wont be able to acces that information in a real match situation.
"
Basically what is the main purpose of this sessions/lessons ( call it however u want ) sharing the knowledge and experience that i accumulated from over a 10 years of playing it @ various skill levels. I myself was a long @ lvl of 3-4k mmr (dota1 days sup) players ( mmr is not so precise tool to measure one player skill but should give some general idea, u kno ) and I am just looking to "speed" up that process by pointing out what u are doing wrong in a mannered way and giving explanations why, focusing mainly @ game decisions ( if its a right time to split push & evade a teamfight and explaining why ) & itemization ( fe building a hex on storm as a 3rd item, which is definitely not a bad item on him by any means but its a matter of priorities, if ur team is already filled with a lot of disables( so its a overkill essentially ? :D ) and u are kinda lacking survivability against physical dmg so u normally prioritize getting shiva to boost ur armor & slow their attack speed etc etc ). And many many many things & situations like this.
Dont know why this huge amount of bashing @ coaching Nova`, mb u tried it urself and wasnt satisfied ? Like i said i have 27 students so far who actually rated the session they had with me, 26 of them give 5 star and one gave a 4 star so.. If thats not convincing enough u can take a look at many positive reviews that were left after the session.
no, i just like to mess around and play with potential victims.
and its Nova´ btw.
idk about others but i wouldnt wanna get coached by someone who confuse ´ for ` :s
at least Chris knows how to type ´ ..just saying~
Its obvious troll, chillout guys :D
At least Chris is receiving some promotion here, its something.
Sadly I dont have time for pro bono sessions and I think my previous sessions and experience already speaks for itself so yeah ... U can have ur own opinion about it ofc and everything but u cant generalize things and say "all coaches are trash bla bla bla, this is a basically a scam, u cant improve that way bla bla bla". Did u have some bad experience with it before if not how can you say things like that when u do not know urself ? So its basically a wild assumptions that u cant back up with anything aka haters gonna hate.
Per favore Accedi per inviare commenti.
So I'm currently one of the top3 coaches @ dotacoach.org, I play Dota&Dota2 combined for 10 years so far, currently around 6.3k MMR, my go to heroes are smth like SF, Puck, Storm, QoP, Viper, WR, Potm and so on, basically majority of the mid heroes and I can provide safelane/position 1 coaching.
I have more than 50 hours of coaching and had more than 20 students (obviously some of them had multiple hour sessions or even came back afterwards to do another one ) and all of them were more than satisfied with it.My average review score is over 4.9/5 (out of 25+ rated sessions). (https://dotacoach.org/kAitorA here u can read all of them when u click on the "reviews" tab and there is also the general info about me and my Dota(2) experience ).Ill just paste one here so u get the picture:
" I thought it was a very informative coaching session. i first watched the coach play while he explained why he made the decisions that he made in a very hard game (4v5, and with very bad supports and no ward vision but he carried hard). After that i played using what i learned from his gameplay and from his advice while i played and i managed to play the best storm spirit game i've ever played. It was a lot of fun, and i think i learned a lot and will use it to climb my mmr. Highly recommend this coach! -Number 7 4/11/2015 "
For NEW STUDENTS special deal, you can give me one replay of your choice and i'll analyze it before the actual session and we can discuss/talk about it for free before the actual session.
My dotabuff profile http://www.dotabuff.com/players/40518174
My steam profile http://steamcommunity.com/id/kAitorA ( if u have any questions concerning the sessions and all )
ps. I can coach all regions.