General DiscussionI lose longer games - What does that mean?

Probably because your teammates are bad carry's. As you like to play as support, you are able to make bigger differences in early games.

I have the same trend and I play mainly support. The longer the game the lower my win rate %. If you are playing support try to pick something that can transition into a semi-carry.

^^ yet somehow the other teams carries are good. Your logic makes zero sense.

playing CM in ranked is the worst thing you can ever do.

Yeah don't play cm if you're queuing alone

I wouldn't read much into it other than analyzing hero choices. Certain heroes obviously win more late. For example 40-50 mins ranked my medusa win rate is 66% vs 54% overall. My 30-40 min medusa win rate is only 50% (albeit only 5 games were in this duration). My troll overall is 62% but 50-60 mins is 36%. It's not rocket science, medusa peaks after getting skadi and maybe another core right around 30 mins and just gets stronger after that so long game suit her. Troll peaks early, like 20-30 mins and his advantage over enemy team starts to drop if you go extremely long when his bkb charges are low and everyone is getting 6 slotted.

But other than hero choices I'd say it's too arbitrary to really worry about unless you had a couple hundred games of evidence.

Why is it the worst?

Honestly I got sick of playing against troll/sniper/pa every game in all pick
The other team has pa, and one person can feed him a few times
and then there is nothing you can do.

The troll stat is actually interesting.. so all you have to do with troll really is wait him out...

It could also be due to your inability to make late game decisions or your inability to direct your team towards the right late game decision making.

@Sampson not necessarily. My point is usually with a support you have more impact earlygame than late because lategame most supports fall off and get 2-3 shot by a farmed carry lategame (not all). Therefore if you play higher impact supports, es, sk, oger, lina etc you have a higher chance to impact the game lategame. Team composition also matters and match ups. But you are right there may not be a correlation at all. I was just trying to offer some helpful advice to another support player.

not enough data, we cant get any consistent conclusions basing on 15 games.

this week ive has 6 games lasting longer than an hour, one of which was an [URL="http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1413403454"]80 minute clusterfuck[/URL]

My stats for Crystal Maiden (most played support hero)

Matches 20-30 min (16 total) 87.50% winrate
Matches 30-40 min (49 total) 44.90% winrate
Matches 40-50 min (54 total) 61.11% winrate
Matches 50-60 min (22 total) 54.55% winrate
Matches over 60 min (7 total) 28.57% winrate

My stats for Witch Doctor (second most played)

Matches 20-30 min (9 total) 77.78% winrate
Matches 30-40 min (31 total) 54.84% winrate
Matches 40-50 min (31 total) 35.48 winrate
Matches 50-60 min (11 total) 72.73% winrate
Matches over 60 min (10 total) 30% winrate

BOTH teams carries will be shitty though. Saying YOUR carry sucks and ignoring that the other teams carry is likely to suck just as much is a wrong way to critique your own gameplay because you are removing all fault from yourself. Your winrate drops significantly because you make poor late game choices that is it

Well if he picked a late game carry that would gaurentee his team had one late game carry, I think I saw one of his games had huskar or something as his teams carry. If your relying on a huskar to carry you late game you are in trouble.

he is talking about trends not individual games

Ya I am saying his hero choices could be impacting his late game impact.

@Sampson I didn't say that the other carry is necessarily better. I agreed with you that may not be the case. I was just trying to point out the game impact of a support. If I play against a good/decent carry he will lategame pop his bkb and come after the squishiest heroes first aka supports. So if I play a cm we are about to team fight and the farmed jug pops his mom/bkb and runs after me unless I have a blink/force to get away I'm dead (now I could position better but then I may not be able to have much impact on the fight because it could be over by the time I am able to cast my skills in a meaning full way) again that is not the point. All I was saying is that when you are playing support your game impact is going to be highest early game all other variables staying equally unless you pick high impact supports.

The other fallacy is that people on your team listen. If my carry chooses a bad time/spot for a team fight late game I can either follow the carry, do my best and hope to get lucky or I can stay back let the carry die then not be able to defend. Contrary to that during early game I may be able to get the kills even if my carry does not pick a good fight. But again that does not mean that my carry is bad or the other is better. It just the understanding of a support role in the game and the impact at different stages of the game.

Again you are complaining about what your teammates ate doing but neglect the fact that the other team has the same issues

Maybe it is the way we play our supports
I generally play super unselfish and don't focus on farm, as well as buying non stop wards etc.
So after 45-50 min the other support probably has an advantage over me.
For instance I could still be building aghs on witch doctor while venge already has deso etc meanwhile I had better warded the map in the first 40 min and given my carry all the farm, but as time goes on it counts for less.

That just may be a reason why in the super late game we are below the 50 % win rate even though it's almost carry vs carry at that point.

@ Triplesteal & Timberwolf who said there wasn't enough data

I checked all the games since I started DOTA and these are the win rates per segment:
< 20 mins: 83 %
20-30 mins: 67 %
30-40 mins: 58 %
40-50 mins: 56 %
50-60 mins: 51 %
60 + mins: 47 %

That is over a 1000 games, so I think it is enough data to say that it's a part of my game that I need to work on

I would say that it's your late game decision making.

@Crudude exactly, I play the same way. At a certain point I become dependent on my carry to pull his weight and either he does or doesn't. But my point being early game I get to control some of the outcome (my plays, wards etc) late game the impact falls off drastically (unless I have specific supports with specific farm).

@Sampson My point was not to blame. I think you are misconstruing my example. The point is impact. I'll give you a better example . If as a support I try to ward late game and mess up and die by getting caught out, what are the chances of my team holding high ground??? Still pretty good I would hope. On the other hand if my carry dies all i can do is feed my self in hope of saving reks if it's worth it.

So if I have a high winrate as a support in early games or anyone else for that matter than they are probably doing their job. The later the game goes the less impact so maybe the loss is due to my inability, maybe the carries, maybe the draft or the timing of the different peaking of the heroes. The point is that if you play a support role you want to use your impact to the greatest, win early game and provide space for your carry/mid and/or pick heroes that can have a great impact late game so that you can actually influence the outcome of the game. I am sure that you understand that as the game shifts the impact shifts for the different roles. That was my point. Not to place blame for wins or losses. Which if you play a support player makes a difference cause you can focus on what you CAN control and try to get better at it and let go of the stuff that you cannot control. Because after all self improvement is the goal.

You are right about you not making a difference late game. Which means you should have 50% winrate late, not lower. If you have lower then it's something wrong with your play.

Though perhaps it's due to pubs' 5 carry lineups, and if you don't win early with a CM the enemy steamrolls you.

@ 零れ桜 you say "late game decision making" what decision making does a 5 support have late game? We are not talking about a pro game or a stack where the team is playing as one...

if you don't make decisions late game ofc ur gonna lose ur late game wtf

"The troll stat is actually interesting.. so all you have to do with troll really is wait him out..."

Yes. He peaks extremely early compared to other carries. Matrice has even said nerf his early game, buff his late game, saying he's somewhat underpowered late. I wouldn't go that far, he still does a tremendous amount of tower damage late so one slip up and he is throning you, but his team fight drops off cus you can cc him and other carries can kill him finally. There's several carries I'd rather have 6 slotted on my team at 60 mins than troll- sniper, medusa, spectre, void.

im pretty sure inedible means that you can't eat it, lel
and yeah its normal for a support player to lose in late game, especially in normal skill where cores lack the decision making to win.
and yeah i think you should play all pick, not cm, its really not a thing mate :)

@零れ桜 my point is as a 5 support what decision making are we talking about? You can't initiate or you'll get blown up so you don't get to determine when the fight occurs. Also you rely on your carry to fight so you can't determine when the time occurs. It's not like you can smoke and gank someone solo as a 5 support late game (most of the time). Even in a team fight once the opposing team pops their bkbs I have to wait to be able to use my skills (if we didn't initiate first). If my team chooses to fight through bkbs all I have is right clicks (so basically nothing unless I have some kind of disable that pierces spell immunity). If my team dies before the enemies' bkbs are up all I can do is run back to fountain or die like a squishy bug. Supports do not dictate the game of play lategame.

Perfect example of this early/late game problem. You win the early game and have to opportunity to push and take towers to take map control. Your carry, mid etc decide no I'd rather farm jungle and give the other team time to catch up. The other team inevitably 5 mans and pushes tower vs 3 while other two are farming. No rotation they get 3 kills. By the time the cores are "ready" to fight that early advantage is gone and one mistake can swing the whole game. I can yell, scream and bitch all game but if they don't want to do it they are not going to and amount of flaming will help. So at the end of the day you are at the mercy of your cores. I'm not complaining about it I'm just stating a fact. So if you chose to play support then that's pretty much what you have to live with. For me that's ok because I enjoy playing support even when I lose games that "should" have been won.

You guys are assuming the other team's carries are better decision makers than yours though by that logic. And on average they should be equal. For every late game you lose cus your carries are dumb, you should win one cus enemy carries are dumb. Doesn't add up to say playing support makes you lose more. Just make sure you play supports that don't drop off.

@Timberwolf Agree. Definitely not saying that the carries are favored one way or another just saying that end game as a support you don't have as much influence (which is what makes it so frustrating). Except if you play supports that don't fall off late game as you've said. And that was my advice to Crudude. To try and pick supports that don't fall off so that he/she can make the greatest impact late game as possible. Another way is also to play a support geared for late game rushing aghs etc but I don't believe in playing the role as such. Hence the problem with this meta if you don't take your advantage early and sleep on it you tend to get punished late game. If I'm an under farmed support due to my early game and we go late game where the opposing support went semi carry or has a greater game impact then your ability to impact the game falls off drastically and you almost become a bystander...

Supports dont fall off. If you itemize for early game and dont transition into late game you fall off. It is like a drow ranger building 5 wraith bands n boots

>For every late game you lose cus your carries are dumb, you should win one cus enemy carries are dumb.

nah man, every late game victory is not cos the enemy carry is dumb, it's cos this guy is playing support perfectly /s

@Sampson explain that to me please if I play a 5 support. Buy wards, sentries smoke etc. am not taking farm from my cores how do you suppose to transition from early to mid game to late game. Fight over farm with my cores? I would just like to know how do you "transition into late game" as a support... Now obviously I can build a "carry" support but that defeats the purpose of playing a support hero.