Well lets be real, if you played that long the most common sense is that you ll never actually improve much more better maybe 4000 is your limit or even less. To be very best in dota is very hard dunno what your goal is but thats the true, some people can play like 10k games and still be 3k thats the reallity. I got 3000 ranked games and yet my best mmr was 5300 and I m usually around 4800-5200 for a year already. Some other people play 3000 ranked games and they are 6000mmr and some play 3k ranked games and they are 2k.
Your mechanical skill is not good enough to outplay opponents heavely for the next lvl of mmr.
I don't agreed with that. Yes there're some skilled players and there're some no-skilled players, even so with good practice you can improve, maybe not to pro level but even 5k isn't pro level and is something that people can achieve.
What I have or at least I think ... is micro (speed) I was a competitive player in AoC (age of empires) I even played the WCG, I feel I can do much better in dota than 3k mmr.
The problem I have and most of people have is that we don't know what to practice or what to improve and that's the real problem. In AoC for example micro was the most important thing, mechanicals was important too but micro was everything, and the ranking was 100% real, someone with 100 points more than you is a lot better and you can see it just playing againts him, in Dota mmr isn't the same, 100 points are nothing.
See for example Suma1l, he grow up with his pro brother teaching him everything, playing with pro players and now? he's pro player. He had people to teach him and give him advice on how to improve and playing with great players.
If you play vs good players you will get better for sure!, playing with 3k pubers 10000 games isn't improvement at all, the game is boring and no one know anything, there's no roam, no teamwork, all of them are selfish, is hard to improve playing with them all day long.
Some people can do it alone with no help, they're skilled people. I'm not asking to be pro I'm asking to get better.
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Mechanical skill? and what kind of mechanical skill? because there're tons of mechanics in dota2. I can outplay peple quite easy in some ranking games and do the most hero damage, the most kills, the most tower damage, the most gold per minute and the most exp per minute, not every single game but quite often so I don't really think 3k is my limit.
My last ranking page stats:
30 W - 19 L
At least 20 games from the 30 win games I outplayed my opponets so my skills aren't bad and the mechanics could be better but they are not bad at all for the next level of mmr, if this were my limit I would never play that good some games, will be just more fair and hard to get feed and when I got feed I snowball to the end and it's a win game. A little shitty stuff I noticed was that when I win i don't get the same points for losing, that's why I'm 3k too, losing always take more points than winning at least for me. Points I earn with 4 wins, go to trash in 3 games, not 4. And 50% of my lost games I played quite damn good for being in the loss team, like:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/983516219
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/989917970
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/991460061
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/998231034
etc
Maybe if someone tell me what I need, maybe I can get a lot better and improve my mmr, but with no record or track of my progress and not knowing what to improve and how, improvments is just a dream.
You can't say "this is your limite, if you played so many games and you're still in the same mmr you can't be better than that" I really sorry man I appreciate your time to reading and answering but that's BULLSHIT.
A simple example, a football player goor or bad had trained with professionals, going to clubs with coachs and people that know how to teach and how to explote talent to be the best. You thinkg you will be improving or play the world cup just for playing football with people in your neighborhood with no skills at all and a really creepy level? I don't think so.
Even Messi or Madarona, 2 of the best players in the world and both from Argentina .... both of them were talented players, but they had people training them, going to professional clubs and developing their skills, yes they were good even as kids but even so they were playing on clubs with professional people training them. I know a lot of shitty players with no talent at all and playing in the first league just for trying hard, dota is the same shit, you can't say what you said without even know my game.
I can play on the same level sometimes with 5k people and you say 3k is my limit, ok.
Bogi is correct. The most likely situation is that you are simply too slow to do much better. But since it's important enough to you to explain your problem in such detail I will take a closer look at some replays and give you some advice.
I have played dota for about 6 years now in dota 1 and dota 2 and have played over 8,000 games. I have watched several thousand pro games. I have even played with and against professional dota players. So I have a huge amount of practice and I have used all of the resources that exist to improve and even created new ones. Nevertheless the highest MMR I ever achieved was 4.1k and that was when I was playing 12 hours a day and really tryharding. I know from the games with 6k+ players that I'm just way to slow to play at that level.
Exactly where your limit is - it is hard to be certain, but there will be one - based on your physical abilities. It is important to avoid frustration and futility to recognize that such a limit does exist and will stop you from advancing in MMR no matter what you do eventually.
That said it may be that you can improve somewhat above your current MMR. But you should also consider whether that is a worthwhile goal. Do no be deceived into thinking that at some MMR level players in pub games (ranked or unranked) suddenly all make helpful, teamwork based, decisions or try their best to win each game. That never happens no matter how high you go. The only way you get that kind of team is to actually have a team. Find 4 like-minded people, make a team, practice together and play games as a team. That is the only way you will get the full dota experience no matter what your MMR level from 1k all the way to 7k MMR.
Keep in mind one disadvantage of maxing out your MMR is that your hero pool will be quite limited. Only your very best heroes will have a decent chance to win a game.
So continuing on with the analysis. First of all I see you have played only 27 games in Very High and have a losing record there. (44.4% win). It is quite likely that you are not close to being able to play in games near 4k MMR.
457 games in High and a better, but still losing record. (48.6% win) Probably you will have maxed MMR near the bottom of High or the top of Normal. (ie near 3200)
1046 games in Normal and still losing (48.28% win). But lets see what might happen if you focused on some of your best heroes to max out MMR.
Your Bloodseeker is by far your best option. Dotabuff "success" for bloodseeker is at 62% with a 77% winrate on 26 games in High bracket, KDA of 5.06. But you have not played it in 6 months so you are out of practice, BS has in fact been reworked since you had most of your success with the hero. If you relearn, and refocus on BS play you can probably gain several hundred MMR points spamming BS. I would guess 300 to 500 points.
PA is not a bad 2nd option, if someone picks Bloodseeker. You could fall back on picking PA. 69% winrate in High bracket, 26 games, KDA 4.65 - but you played it in slightly easier games than the BS games on average. Dotabuff "success" with PA is only 49%.
Dotabuff "success" is a Dotabuff Plus feature. You have to subscribe to see that data. None of your other heroes show performance significantly better than your average performance. Some have high wirates and high KDAs but it was all against easy opponents.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1476066816
Recently you played this Invoker game which was a fairly easy game since an opponent abandoned.
Your invoker maintains a high KDA 4.26 vs 2.64 for the average player. But your winrate is low (37.04% vs 44.06% for the average player). This suggests that you play the hero too cautiously avoiding deaths, but failing to contribute enough to win.
Let's watch the replay. The first thing that jumps out at me is your purchase of blink dagger and aghs. These items take a lot of skill to use correctly on invoker. I wonder if you can do it. I see aghs is a fairly common build for you on Invoker. The low cd on invoking spells allows Invoker to use really impressive and useful combos of spells, but only if you actually have the skill to cast and aim them fast enough.
Your team picked 3 heroes that usually go mid so you got bumped to the offlane. It looks like you must play a fair amount of mid since your creep blocking skills are not zero, but you still fail the block on the 6th block. You need about triple that to complete the blocking tactic correctly.
Your offlane ward is in a good spot to protect you against that tri-lane. And they really put almost no pressure on you at all, enemy supports position way to far back to be a threat. So its an easy lane. You manage to get 13 of the first 50 lasthits and zero of the first 50 denies.
You notice and cancel a clarity potion at 5 min. Long before this point your should have had ghost walk ready to escape from ganks.
You know your hotkeys. You prep the correct spells to defend against a push. I see you are paying attention to the map when there is not action in the lane near you. You miss 4 of the first 6 aoe spells you cast. Then when you have no defense option invoked you walk up and feed at 9:30.
At 10:40 you miss a stun strike. At 13 min correct EMP tornado. Hit sunstrike at 13:20 on stationary target. 15 min hit EMP on 1, missed 3, walked into static storm, saved by teammate Fstaff. 15:50 too slow to cast icewall and died as the enemy advanced.
18 min hit EMP, tornado into DB... but cold snap would get the kill, not sure why you choose DB.
18:36 good icewall. Results in 5 for 1 victory for the team. Good use of quas to heal. 20:30 enemy abandons with T1 towers still up. Score 16 to 14. Valve gifts you the win.
21:10 hit EMP tornado on 1 miss one. 21:48 died because you cast icewall too slowly and then panicked. You had 0.98 seconds between when you noticed the enemy was advancing (you backed up) and juggernaut casting bladefury. You did not cast icewall until 1.27 seconds at which point you were already going to die unless you invoked and cast ghostwalk in the next 4.53 seconds, instead you failed to even change orbs by the time you died.
23:39 hit tornado on 1.
25:50 hit tornado, EMP on 1, DB on 1. 26 min completed aghs.
26:30 remembered to use magic wand and phase, ghost to escape. Invoked and used ghost walk in 5.1 seconds after exiting kinetic field - would have died if team did not use mech and death pulse to save you because ghost walk invoking time was so slow.
27:20 missed meteor on stationary target.
29:10 completed blink dagger. 29:20 hit sunstrike on stationary target. 29:55 missed sunstrike on stationary target.
30:52 hit sunstrike on stationary target.
31 min hit meteor DB on one. 31:30 missed EMP on one. throne dies 31:43.
The overall results is, you did not once use aghs or blink dagger to do anything you could not have done without having these items. Your invoker skills are less than I would expect from a typical 3k player, and that is probably why your winrate on the hero is below average. Even in a very easy game you had to be saved from feeding because you made many mistakes.
If you watch your replays and objectively compare your performance to a higher MMR game you can see that you are too slow to play at Very High level. I suspect that most of the errors I saw in this game were due to misperceptions of gameplay and misclicks. It seems like you have the basic idea of how to play invoker, you just can't do it.
You would have much more success with invoker if you went quas-exhort and maxed your forge spirits power. They would get a lot more done autoattacking than you can missing lots of spells. You could get necro books, and then play as a cold-snap, or icewall + summons ganker, or as a rat dota pusher. These styles are much more within your abilities to execute.
One additional point here will be enlightening to many. 5k MMR is approximately the top 0.5% of players. This is not something most people can achieve. In fact it is really something that is completely impossible for well over 90% of players to achieve.
When you think of moving up in MMR, realize that it does not merely mean getting better at dota 2. It means outplaying a higher % of all dota players. Only half of players can be above average. Only 10% of players can be in the top 10%. Only 1% can be in the top 1%. Everybody can't get to the top 1%... its categorically impossible. Maybe YOU, the reader happens to be the 1% of new players who is just newer to the game, eventually can be in the top 1% and will get there in time. But the odds are 100 to 1 against that being true. Far more than 90% of new people who try dota will never make it to 5k MMR if they spend their whole life trying to be the best at dota.
But that's ok. You don't have to get to XXXX level of MMRs to enjoy the game. Millions of players are near 2k and below and still love it.
man relentless i dont know
i've played dota with more of less the same group of friends since 6.43b
half of them are above 5k, and the other half are low 4k at least
relentless does first picking carry make my life hard? i'm addicted to safe lane and the only way to play 90% in that lane is by first picking. i also don't believe in counters for carry heroes, there are many good carries which don't depend on enemies and can be outplayed quite easily. for example juggernaut wasn't that strong before nerfs, people didn't know how to play against him, but now everyone and his mother understands that hero and with the nerfs it is really hard to win over 60% winrate.
Sometimes i wonder why some players are that poor even after playing for so many years.
Maybe because of mediocre game reflexes? It's an important attribute to win you games.
Doesn't matter you have great game sense and knowledge if your reaction is too slow.
Relentless, wow! that was quite awesome feedback. Dota plus looks great!
I was playing bad as Invoker i had a break for 6 months and I lost a lot of practice, the EMP was just nothing sometimes but I was playing Invoker just for compendium rewards, and is not an excuse but I smoke some weed while I play normal games sometimes :P.
Another thing about that game, since I needed to kill someone with sunstrike and since I was alone as a offlaner I was leveling up all three skills, quas, wex and exort. Full exort were a death sentence but to achieve the compendium reward I did what i did.
Probably most of my last no-ranked games are crap, I don't even play ranking because I don't feel confortable since I started playing again, right now to not get frustrated I was playing random every game, almost everygame and some compendium "quest".
But how I said, was a nice feedback, thanks and I'll try to get dotabuff plus, that's something I need to track some progress.
woah u guys should make a book.
if u wanna improve just find a sensei who will take you under his shoulder and play with you for a long period.
Zenoth, I've got about 100 people added to friends and all but a few of them are over 4k MMR, many are mid 4k to 5k, a few are over 6k and Beesa has accounts at 7k plus. But I added people I like to play with and like to watch play and those people tend to be way above average players. Most of them have gained a lot of MMR points since I added them.
Even the people that I picked to play with going way back to the very start in dota 1 (playing -apem when I started) also were very talented players including Grimmorum, Ar1se, and Febby. These guys were way, way better than me then as now. I paid attention to and tried to befriend anyone who was excellent. Even though I am not exceptional, I was someone who would tp in to hand you a salve, buys you a tp when you ask, gets the wards up and keep them up, blinks in to ravage to create space for you in fights... these things don't require much skill but they are appreciated by excellent players and make them want to play with you again.
People tend to want to play more with those that cause them to win. Those who are very good at dota, also play more, are available to play more, are still playing 5 years later etc...Because of this excellent players tend to have friends who are also outstanding at dota. So a friends list of a top player, like yourself Zenoth, is quite unrepresentative of the community at large.
But I also must not be biased by my personal experience. I must look at an objective source like Dotabuff and see the huge numbers of less skilled players. When Team matching started there were 400,000 accounts on Team's who were below 2.3k MMR.
There were large numbers all the way down to sub-1k MMR. And when Valve published their MMR distribution http://blog.dota2.com/2013/12/matchmaking/
I could see it agreed with the data Dotabuff was collecting, Team MMR being shifted a bit higher than the general population as expected.
So while those who are really into dota, playing it a lot are somewhat better there remain millions of players - for instance the 40 million+ compendiums sold last year... millions of players who play the game, are big fans but are not very good. These millions of players will mostly remain below 3k MMR. Individuals improve over time, but they are not going to move up in MMR relative to the population much at all because that is what percentiles mean. They are a relative measure, not an absolute measure. To go from 2.7k MMR to 3.2K MMR you have to outplay another 25% of all dota players. Its a huge change and most people can't do it.
Joller First Picking anything can make it much more difficult to play. A lot of players may disregard counters, but some will counter pick you. For instance if you first pick Terrorblade you are going to see more than your fair share of Earthshaker and Elder Titan against you - you will also encounter a lot more invis ganking heroes who get orchids, and a lot more early push before you come online. Anyone who does know how to make it tough for TB to succeed will probably do it.
However if you are picking an uncommon hero, there will be far fewer people concerned about it. When everyone was picking sniper, everyone got lots of practice against sniper and many learned closing heroes, many learned to get blink daggers. Terrorblade is only in 3.38% of games in 6.84 compared to Juggernaut in 19.87% so people are far more likely to try to counter jug than TB. Everyone knows now, even in low MMRs to get ghost scepters against Jugg.
Also I would tell that playing calm and quiet is it best way to gain mmr. For example, http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1477402002 this game should have been lost because axe was stealing jungle and abandoned later and also mid wasn't that great early-mid game. Also I seriously think KOTOL was trolling on friends account, auto-attacking creeps and not giffing mana when pinged at. I thought about starting to flame someone but then I thought that ah fuck this shit and eventually our opponents made huge mistakes and it ended as a win for us. Flaming would have ended with storm and kotol playing even worse. I also see my lower mmr friends not micro-managing team with pings and quick chat enough.
I have played this game for almost 3k hours and I am getting tired of this same shit when rage in team begins and I usually just don't write back unless it's needed(e.g we actually can take an objective).
Thanks Joller I think the same, when I rage or someone rage, there're more % to lose, not only people get more angry, they lose time writing and insulting, and the most important thing, if someone is angry with you, is almost 100% that he won't help you and you will be dead just for that, thinking that he will help you when he wont.
I am saving this post for years to come. So much wisdom and good spirits unlike anything I've seen in this forum so far. Thanks guys!
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Hi!
After few years of playing Dota I realize that I'm not improving at all. Well maybe I play much better from when I start dota2 but I'm stuck at 3k mmr. I'm not playing ranking for a while but because I don't want to lose points.
As far as I know if you're 3k when you find some pub game is the same bracket, most of people are 3k so maybe isn't really different from ranking (maybe people try-hard more often than in pub games but in the end is the same). If I can't win more than I loss here how can I be able to raise my mmr?
I'm stuck inside a quite annoying loop, win X games loss X games. I can't win 10 games in a row if I win 4-5 I'll lose 5-7, everyday the same thing. When I win some games my opponets seems better but at the same time my team get worst. Every day I win some games I know for sure that the next cupple of games will be a nightmare. My winrate is about 49.48% not even 50%!. I'm always in red numbers comparing win vs loss, now I'm 20 games below (negative).
A lot of times when I want to go mid, most of the team want mid but when I want to support or play another role, no one pick mid and no one want to go, i just don't get it, really I just can't. I try not to blame others, be respectful, help the team, sometimes even I mute people to not get angry and keep playing with clear mind.
I watch most of my replays not matter if I played awesome or the worst performance ever seen before. I practice a lot with bots or lobbys like lasthits under tower, jungle farm and timing to stack, be efficient with mana and item builds, I try to not be greedy even if I'm playing a mid hero and no one want to buy wards or upgrade the courier I do.
I also watch a lot of pro games but also pub and ranking games from pro players (when they play heroes I want to learn more, practice or improve). I think I need a lot of practice and knowdelge but I'm know some decent information about the game more than most of the people playing with me. I don't say "buy that, do that" sometimes I say some advice but only friendly advice if they take it great if they don't fuck it. Also I know about creepblock how good it is and how can change the lane, how aggro works, how to harrass properly, map awareness, when to gank, when go back to farm, rune time, rosh respawn, I always try the best in every game but doesn't seems to be working.
Yes I'm much better now compared with myself years ago but I'm 3k mmr since ranking mode was added to Dota, so after months and months and lots of games I'm in the same level. Most of my win games I've great team! good communication, good ganks, good item builds, etc but when I lose they are quite bad, insulting, raging, bad ganks or not ganks at all.
For example, TP ... the most overpower item in the entire game, I always have a TP to not only escape, to gank, get a easy kill, save a friends life or even defend a push or tower ..... but when I'm playing mid or whatever and there're 3 heroes with 50hp after killing me, they just keep farming even if some of them are in the jungle few steps behind me, they don't even move.
I don't know how those people have my mmr or even MORE, or a lot of people just playing heroes for practice when they don't even know how to use it properly. Yes you can practice on pub games, but at least be good with something, if you don't know anything about some hero, practice with bots and then play with me, if not I get a free loss just for feeding and play 5vs4.
Even with all that as I said I try not to blame them and keep playing my game, but that's not enough to get better. When I play vs good players my team is so bad, I need to play 1vs5 and I not good enough to win those games by myself. When I win a lot of games, the opponent team is really bad, like my teams after some winning streak (get rekt time).
I love be competitive and I want to improve, for now my goal is to reach 4k, the best mmr I had was 3700 solo and 3700 party, now I have 3600 party and 3300 solo. When I lose I want to lose properly playing a good game, a game where the opponent team think "they were good, was a really hard match up" but 90% of my lose games the opponents thinkg "shit, they're so bad I don't even need to play good, just random builds and kill them all, ez game".
I've some contacts in steam, they're not friends just contacts for playing sometimes, I've 4k players and 5k players in my friendlist, i don't want to bother them saying "hey, can you teach me pls?" but sometimes they want to play with me or even 1vs1 to help me.
I won 1vs1 to some 5k players not only 1 time, even they say "man, you play like 4k-5k, don't know why you can't go out from 3k" i don't know ether, I can play decent match up againts really good players much better than me and I can't win 3k pubs with 3k people.
Now I'm just playing normal games going full random most of the games just for playing other roles and not just playing mid heores, but that's my spot where I feel better where I like to play and the most fun for me.
Isn't just well you win againts some 5k players, good for you but in a real match up will be another 4, 5k players roaming you, ganking you and that's another level. Ok, but even in some ranking games I play againts 5k players with some 1k or 2k in their party so all of my team are 3k but since they have 1 player with 1k or 2k there is a 5k player that lose mid to me but he manage to get more feed than I do, that's not sorprise ..... a guy playing everyday in 5k bracket, playing with 3k players is quite easy for him to get feed mor than I do even if he lost his lane.
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What can I do to get better or at least have some track of my improvement?, since I don't have anything to manage my progress it's kinda hard to be able to get better. There're tons of things to get better but don't know what's what I need now to get 4k mmr.
My ranking stats:
Winrate: 50.65%
Kills: 7.64
Deaths: 4.08
Assist: 9.84
GPM: 424 (kinda low)
XPM: 496 (kinda low too)
My ranking games: http://www.dotabuff.com/players/91441752/matches?date=&hero=&skill_bracket=&lobby_type=ranked_matchmaking&game_mode=®ion=&faction=&duration=&enjoyment=any
Just for a quick look every time I got feed, I turn unstoppable and that's because of the practice I do everyday but I'm still a 3k player. My last ranking game I still remmember it, was so easy ...... even if my team was good that was just 1vs5 all game long and I carried most of them 25 free points. I don't have that performance everygame but I have it a lot of times, since I'm not perfect I have some horrible perfomance too.
But just watch some games and try to help me out with something, I really want to get better and I don't know what to do, where to get better, how and if you know a way to track your improvement will be nice.
Please, I don't want trash talk or something I just want help, advice or any help you have, was quite a long post so if you readed all I thank you!