General DiscussionSupport in a losing safelane (scenario)

100% you leave the lane and go apply pressure elsewhere on the map.

Let your safelane suck xp and leave him alone if your presence won't do any shit
Double pull/pull the easy camp that is already stacked at least once
Stack shits if your safelane can comeback on farm by clearing jungle camps

@mischief
Yup, totally agree with him.

For me it depends.
1) If tower already low hp - give up on it and go to another lane to push and to avoid feeding
-my carry will go for jungle or he can farm the creep behind t2 tower

2) If tower still strong - probably defend it at all cost and put on defensive wards to look out for ganks
-sometimes ask other support to help but they rarely came
-if they ask for help or switch lane i will go for it
-usually carry will just focus on farming

depends

Call +1 to help. Or apply pressure elsewhere. Unknown skill

I totally forgot about asking for rotations
Thx guys

how do you double pull in 7.01 again? provided youre not a pudge.

Just walk to the next camp?

you dont double pull if they are pressuring ur lane because u put urself and ur carry in danger.

leave and go kill people elsewhere, or rotate in backup and kill their aggro lane. The worst thing you can do as support is afk in a shitty lane showing on the map, sapping carry xp and feeding occasionally

distance between most camps is too large to double pull normally. i think its maybe possible on radiant safelane tho, not sure.

normal skill. have 2 options, if u have kill potential, ask for help, if not, go to other lane and try to help.

Thank you everybody it seems like we have most of the good answers!

So lets do a summary about it, the support should:
-Apply pressure/gank on other lanes
-Pull to deny xp and stack jungle for comeback (JDF8 think double pulling is a bad thing)
-Ask for help/rotation
-SupprtzMasterz had also point out the importance of not losing your T1 tower

And lets add a few more question (with the same scenario):

1) I often read carry players complaining about their support leaving the lane or pulling, what do you think about it?

2) If you are a solo support, who should normally come to help you for a gank (the jungler, middle or solo offlane) and why?

3) What do you do if you lose your T1 tower and the enemy team start invaded your jungle and farming your stacked camp?

You shouldn't care about your idiotic carries' whines
They'd stop whining once they felt the effect of your help on other lane by the space he gets after the laning phase is over

Personally I'd actually be glad if my support actually leaves me alone on against a non retarded lane and actually does something instead of spinning around sucking XP
Definitely commend worthy

Hmmm,

really makes you think

^That ember spirit's head is too damn big!

@bws~: I agree, when playing carry I prefer that my support leave me so that I can still have some XP advantage

Karl spends more time spamming "really makes you think" on DB forum than playing the game

really makes you think

double pulling on radiant:

1. the creep wave is now under your carry's tower, so it's easier to dive him
2. the carry eats regen tanking creeps (only really bad if it is a low hp ranged carry like morph or maybe sniper
3. you are sitting probably on the low ground managing your pull, the enemy can walk up to u and combo you from fog and ur carry cannot help because he is tanking enemy creeps under tower

if your lane is stronger and you have a trilane pulling is great, if you have a weaker lane it is risky

Hahahahaha surely it takes a double offlane to win a double safelane
(if not, leave lane and learn be useful somewhere instead of stealing XP)

It's very situational dependant. You must be careful pulling stacks to creeps now as they are low ground it's easier for a dual lane or even solo lane hero to come down and put the pressure on you without you seeing them. I'd recommend warding the jungle where your stacks are, vision is key to controlling a lane. Also why people are mad about support getting xp? Support heroes spells are super powerful early game and they need levels for these its the gold that you shouldn't be sapping. But stacking and getting xp from jungle will boost both you and the carry if you can do it. If its a solo offlaner as the support you should be totally outzoning him and calling on your carry to finish him off if you see a kill potential. With your ward in jungle or river you can do with complete safety. If it's a duel lane careful spell timing and playing very safely is best. Don't even bother pulling stacks you will stab yourself in the foot. If it's completely hopeless you need to ask for gank or rotate if your team is very toxic. (gank mid or gank with the offlaner) roam and place wards setup kills and stack. You should always be thinking to some goal not just sapping xp standing there like a goat.

NS. Go win another lane. Or ask for early rotations, which I doubt you'll get in solo queue.

Worst thing I have ever had to face as a support is an offlane Weaver and Ogre Magi. Those sons of bitches were diving us pre 1 minute mark with Swarm and Ogre tanking.

there can be some really nasty dual lanes just gotta use your game experience and bit of common sense it comes with time. My worst enemy is myself if i can play with a calm attitude i will almost definately win the game.

if your carry is weak and hardly need to farm he should ask for triple in begin (like spectre/am)
if that not happen gang mid if your support hero have good potential for gangs, and just dont let enemy mid hero farm on line, so this will prevent some enemy sups to rotate to mid, so some of your lines will have that needed space

Wad if i met dark seer,drow and axe offlane.Wad can i do as a ogre and jug do?

what a tri offlane? then you would rotate your jungling or one of your offlaners back to the safe. You should be able to deal with them 3 on 3. You rarely get tri offlanes

or if you mean you are the offlaners? Then just leave jug alone to farm i guess and make some stacks for him ancients etc too.

usually you pull when the offlaner cant contest, and the lane is far from your tower. in a dual offlane that you're losing, pulling will certainly piss your carry off.

Just to make another summary of some of the new answers:

Problem double pulling:
-Offlaners can towerdive or gank the support that is on the lowground
-You need to check if your carry have regen and can tank creeps (stout shield)
-You need to make sure the offlaner can't contest (zone him out)

Good points of defensive trilane:
-Counter aggro Trilane
-no problem pulling
-Good for your hard carry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKxjZ1o1Ts8

if you can't win a lane, just leave the lane and go gank other lanes if there's free kills

if there's no free kills or opportunity to pressure the enemy lanes, then just get a tp for counter ganks, a smoke for later ganks and go farm the jungle and let your carry get solo exp

I have another question, I often watch Purgegamers and he often tell supports to go pull.

For exemple he have made a new serie: day[9] learns dota

In this video (https://www.twitch.tv/purgegamers/v/115762642) at 30 min, Purge said to day[9]: "If you can't zone, just pull"
It was a safelane jugg and Lion against Orgre and batrider. Purge told him that it was kind of scarry for the jugg but he should be ok (since he can spin). It was about pulling a stack camp, not double pull.

What do you think about it?

From my personnal experience as a support, my carry just end up dying but when I'm the carry and my support do that it's generally easyer for me (I prefer last hitting undertower than getting harrassed)

eddit: Thanks cookie for your guide with CM that's one of my favorite support :) I will watch it

like i've said, if you can't gank the other lanes nor harass in yours you go farm the jungle

pulling is farming as well

From your questions,

1) I never encounter carry that complains about my pulling except that they actually wanted it even if they don't ask. In most of my matches, enemies seem afraid to towerdive so no problem pulling. Not sure in high level match.

2) Jungle, middle, offlane all of them should gank once they hit lvl 6. Since that's their advantage to get kill? Some hero such as invoker need support to come gank for them in mid becoz they can't leave lane for exp idk

3) When enemies start invade jungle, especially that ganking type omg i hated it. What to do is to ward jungle, stay keen to their support as you want to deward, if you get the feeling of being watch, they know your movement, that's the place that's being warded, or probably mk is shittin from the top of the tree. So don't hesitate to buy sentry, as much as you can, as they will bestow you great items at the end. Otherwise, you can use their jungle and ward them. When the time comes, you can welcome them home

@teh
We are the safe lane against a tri offlane.we have a jungle lc and we basically lost our t1 tower in 5 mins.

Either get someone to gank it, or ward the jungle for the lane and leave.

guys, did anyone recommend a cool trick already? if you anticipate a strrong offlane but have a bad early game carry, just switch both to offlane and ask your offlaner to be safe lane. That gives you some time while enemy regroup and often in solo rank, enemy can not adapt to that (players are so mindset that carry has to be safelane that enemy carry will just tilt intead of reverting lanes)

Well it depends if they can tower dive and if they play their lane right. In some cases pulling under tower when they can dive u is bad. U tank the wave waste regen. But if they can't dive you, then u might prefer safely farming under tower (assuming u know how to farm under tower) . But let's be real. 2-3ks can't farm under tower

@Story time: Cool trick but I need to start climbing my mmr if I want to use it :p

@Jacked (af): Let's be real 2-3Ks can't farm anywhere :p
More seriously I have seen some rule about last hitting under tower:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/2h89ph/last_hitting_under_the_tower/ (from jkaos92)

Ranged creep:
If your damage > 80: tower, tower, you
If your damage < 80: you, tower, tower, you

Melee creep:
If your damage > 67-70: tower x5, you
If your damage < 67: you, tower x5, you

Catapults:
If your damage > 110 = Tower (x3) ,You
If your damage > 55 and < 110 = You, Tower (x3), You
If your damage < 55 = 3 hit you 3 hit tower

Personally if it isn't working, I'd switch up my game as the support in the same lane (pull, stack then allow the carry to farm it, zone opponents, and encourage the carry to tower hug). If that still won't work, I'd leave and allow the carry to get XP + Gold as I try and help the other lanes while stacking for the struggling carry. But I don't usually play support and I'm only in NS (sometimes HS), it's just that if I were the carry in the situation, I'd want you to do that. :)