not saying this in a bad way but that guy had approx. 3000~ mmr on you so he'd win vs you on whatever
bs is a really strong 1v1 hero as well
BS will always outsustain a centaur 1v1. BS can't really just straight up go on a centaur of a similar level because of double edge and stun, but what BS can do is wear him down and then kill him once he's at like 200hp. It is kind of unavoidable, what you od as centaur is farm up your talon and go jungle, it is just not worth staying in that lane 1v1 a BS when you can't really farm but you need gold.
@Sefiir
MMR is just a number :P
@RPQ-sama
Ho actually I forgot to buy talon.
Also I feel like 1v1 is harder than 1v2(or3). I wonder is it really the case or is it because, in normal skill, the enemy support will always fuck his carry lane?
You should beat him, you played like shit.
Against bs you always do the following: Ignore last hits and hit him, especially so if it's at the level 1 stage and even more so if it's 1v1.
You hit him, you hit him again, you back and target hit him again then a second one before backing. You even have a stun level 1, or should have (or report inc) and after taking down 20% of his hp, as he wants to last hit do heal, you stun him, hit him 2 more times. Doesn't matter how many tangos/potion he has, you should have the same and the little shit won't even get close to you later. He just can't heal enough, he has to tank you stun and hits before last hitting so he's just sitting in the back leeching.
Now, what do you do if he leeches and waits for a moment to rape you? (let's say level 6 - you should be 8). Well, you free farm and keep zoning him, make sure he's poor, farm from the other position (enemy creeps closer to your tower than yourself) and keep at it. Remember to deny, makes him rage, he gets less xp and now with the patch, you even get bonus xp.
All in all, laning against a bs is generally defined in the level 1 stage, DON'T BE A FUCKING PU$SY AND making him respect the 150-200 aoe range around you and the creep you want to last hit, even if you won't as you will end up hitting him if he gets close. Buy a stout, he can't harras back or boots and chase, even a fucking orb of venom helps you vastly - whatever your preference.
Hitting BS with a PMS doesn't do anything. He can just abuse aggro and last hit creeps to heal up. When I play bs 1v1 I LOVE WHEN THE OTHER HERO IS HITTING ME, because it does jack shit against PMS.
You know what I hate? I hate denies and successful last hitting on the part of the enemy hero. If the enemy hero is competent at last hitting, and has good base damage so he can even deny my farm, I can be in trouble. Oh and I also hate ursa and MK, but that's a completely different story.
Centaur cannot deny BS's farm, he just doesn't have the right click damage to fuck with a PMS + Quelling blade BS. What he can do is stun BS when he's bloodraged and about to last hit, and try to deny a few of them, but bs can quickly heal up anyways. Using double edge when BS is bloodraged can put a lot on dmg on BS, but also on yourself, which means you increase BS's damage cause you're low, which means you will find it harder to contest him further since he can heal up every time and you can't.
BS and Centaur of the same (at least relatively competent) skill level, centaur wins 10% of the time, because it depends on BS misplaying a lot. Centaur, on the other hand, doesn't have to misplay at all, just playing centaur in the lane competently will still not do anything to really win the lane. This is what it means for a matchup to be unfavorable. This is how it feels to play BS against MK or ursa (actually, no, that matchup is 10x worse than this).
Now, when you play in 2-3k bracket, you don't care about any of this shit. Realistically, you can abuse people because they are retarded, that BS is going to bloodrage himself to hit some creeps, stun him, double edge him, let him panic and deny his farm because he's probably incompetent at last hitting as well.
no you cant win against a bs 1v1 as a cent if you assume both are on the same skill level
and no, don't ignore last hits please, try to put stress on him but never ignore last hits as an offlaner 2-3 creeps are like one extra salve or tango
If you ignore last hits against a BS he can use that as an opportunity to heal up as the creeps are dying. He can literally stand in 8 creeps (4 enemy 4 friendly), take all the harass you throw at him, and then last hit and deny everything if you just ignore last hits. If you put an effort to contest him, it will be hard because he has way superior last hitting capability (bloodrage does that), so you should abuse aggro, get as many last hits as possible, stun him when he gets even moderately low or goes for a last hit, so that he cant last hit to heal up, etc.
Whatever you do, BS is literally among 3-4 heroes in the game against which you absolutely cannot actually ignore last hits.
Nobody is telling you what you can or cannot do, but rather what you should or should not expect. You should not expect to win the lane against BS by just running at him with a hero that is not suited to trade with him. Sure, you can win a lane like that, but that is expecting to win because the opponent is bad, which, if you are close to 50% winrate, is never something you should do: think that the opponent is worse than you.
A more consistent way to get the most out of that lane is to abuse aggro, make sure BS cannot easily heal up whenever he wants and get some sustain yourself. Everything outside of that is expecting your opponent to be much worse than you, and that is neither a way to win the lane or MMR.
I don't know why you are so worked up about it, I would understand if we mentioned something about drow but not about cent, you don't even play the hero if I saw that right
the main point here is that you shouldn't avoid the farm due to the fact that the q of BS gives him a way to heal up if the BS knows what he is doing
at lvl 3 you can go full agro then with your nukes(assuming you don't die before that and give him free farm till you get back on the lane)
you are talking about the stun as if you have no mana limits on that hero, but at level 1 you have 240 mana and the skill takes 130 mana with a 13 second cd
lets assume you get that stun off, then what? 2 seconds are enough for 2 hits and you will take the agro of the wave at you since you are both melee
he has 3 armor, you have 2
he has more attack dmg than you and a q that gives you 25% more attack dmg and restores 19% what is 100 hp for every melee creep and 60 for the ranged ones
you can't hit him and last hit at the same time so what will you do?
The only good usage of stun against BS in lane is when he is at about half HP and wants to heal up, then you stun him as he goes in for the last hit, deny it, and double edge him while he is bloodraged. Aside from that, it does not really do anything.
1v 1 is imposble vs blood
protip:
if enemie pick invoker just go blood mid and get free mmr
^or ursa or mk or literally any hero that is fast and trades well
anyway just talon and jungle, once u have blink and a +1 like a support or the mid or smth u can kill bs, but otherwise try to just avoid him
^bs loses to high burst, and lane dominators
Mk, Ursa, od (I'd actually skill 2-1-4-1), viper, maybe lc, maybe Shaker
Most of these matchups r still playable except Ursa and mk
Thank you for all your answer guys!
Ok so if I understood correctly I should never do what Benao said:p
Also do you have some answer for my 3rd question about 1v1 offlane in general?
This meta revolves around the concept of having a strong safelaner that can 1v1 most offlaners without any trouble.
The idea is to have your 4 and 5 more free to either gank other lanes, steal bounty runes and pull camps.
At least that's the case in 5k-7k avg games that i've played.
As for bs, he's much like necro in that he has sustain and can outregen almost anyone.
In a game against bs you need to either ask for a gank super early if you think your 4 and you can kill him. If he has strong supports you do what any offlaner does - take one for the team.
Directly to your questions:
1. Pretty natural outcome. 1v1 is a regen war. It's not about winning him (if you cant) but rather getting as much as possible.
2. Probably not picking centaur in the first place. Enchantress, Brew & even NP are pretty good in that solo matchup.
Considering their draft is very greedy and not very good at babysitting (which is why he picked bs in the first place) i would probably just accept that lane loss with centaur and try to get my blink from the jungle once bs hits 6. When you're in lane just try to pull aggro.
3. 1v1 with a good match up rarely happens. The reason behind that is that you usually pick during the first 3 picks while enemy safelaner usually is 4th or 5th. You will be countered in lane. That's your life as offlaner.
Real 1v3 lanes rarely happen in my games anymore. Enemy 4 and 5 usually roam a lot.
If you believe in your team and are given a shit matchup your mentality is to get as much as possible.
1. you can beat him, he can also beat you, the winner is who does the trades better.
2. i would've ripped him a new one
3. you get to smack the opponent directly, isntead of beating around the bush like a 1v2, or hiding 100 meeters behind the bush like a 1v3
I'm not fixated with drow but with how clueless people play the game and spread out their cancer!
Cent beats bs doing what i just told you. Even if you get a draw or lose, he will have far less farm than if you just act as if you lost already and dont pressure him anyway somehow regarding, your farm, an offlaners farm, more important for the team, than actually doing your fucking job as offlaner and being cancer to him!!
You noobs dont even realize bs's weakness! Doesnt matter how much block he has, its not stronger than you early levels, if he wants to touch you he exposes another weakness, creep aggro/multiple targets and level 1 he doesnt have a heal actualmy but a double edge sword that is indanely abusable to take advantage of with cent stun level 1!!! He also has no fuxking bonus if you both get low (you shoumdnt) and you habe more Hp.
If you dont wanna play the right way dont do it (lack of balls and enthusiasm to get better) but dobt come here and state some bullshit facts defending your defensive/passive stand in that situatipn or excusing yourself from losing that lane purely from a matchup perspective when IT IS YOU THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!
BS has higher base damage, higher armor, and the same base strength. You cant harass him even on level 1 unless he forgot to buy shield.
Cent beats bs doing what i just told you.
He really doesn't. Considering both players are competent with their heroes.
Even if you get a draw or lose, he will have far less farm than if you just act as if you lost already and dont pressure him anyway somehow regarding, your farm, an offlaners farm, more important for the team, than actually doing your fucking job as offlaner and being cancer to him!!
Now, here's the problem. You can get some farm in that lane, there's no doubt about that. What you can't do is - contest his levels or last hits. You really can't, he has superior last hitting power, more armor, more sustain, and your way of dealing massive damage to him deals damage to you as well (which you really do not want against because being low = putting yourself in danger). A competent BS will never get stunned/double edged with bloodrage on, he'll pull creeps way away from you, making it dangerous to approach further, then last hit to heal up, if you try diving him, you'll take massive damage, which just improves how he feels in that lane, I just LOVE laning against a 200hp opponent, then buying boots and killing him. As levels go on, you'll just keep getting zoned every time you come in to last hit. If he is competent. If he is not competent, you can just dive his tower and kill him at level 1, but you should never assume your laning opponent to be an idiot. What this means is that even if you do not die in lane, he can shrug you off fairly easily. So it is good to stay in lane to get some trade farm, but at some point, he'll become too strong for you to deal with, and you should go jungle. You still won't win the lane, and this post was about winning the lane against bs. If you really want to win this lane at any reasonable level, you call your 4/5 to rotate and kill him, because BS can't do a lot against two lvl 1/2 heroes when he's also lvl 1/2 and you pick a hero that runs at people.
You noobs dont even realize bs's weakness! Doesnt matter how much block he has, its not stronger than you early levels, if he wants to touch you he exposes another weakness, creep aggro/multiple targets and level 1 he doesnt have a heal actualmy but a double edge sword that is indanely abusable to take advantage of with cent stun level 1!!! He also has no fuxking bonus if you both get low (you shoumdnt) and you habe more Hp.
If you skill stun on centaur at level 1, you should delete dota. His stun is fucking terrible if that's all you have.
If you dont wanna play the right way dont do it (lack of balls and enthusiasm to get better) but dobt come here and state some bullshit facts defending your defensive/passive stand in that situatipn or excusing yourself from losing that lane purely from a matchup perspective when IT IS YOU THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!
Ye, sure, listen to the advice of a guy who is flat 4k, who has 6.5k games with 50% winrate, he'll tell you how to get better, win more and how you aren't good enough. I have 70% winrate with safelane BS over the course of 44 matches. You have 53% over 15 matches, and only 300 MMR on me.
@feelsbadman
i'd say bloodseeker actually wins/does very well in all of those matchups except for ursa, and even then it's not that bad as long as you don't feed
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3490764404 vs ursa
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3490687147 vs mk
on paper centaur CAN beat bloodseeker (right clicks, double-edge spam)
in reality, bs with pms doesn't care about the right clicks, and he'll regen faster than centaur.
so in a similar skill match-up, bs will almost always win that lane.
The only time I can see bs losing is if the centaur could kite and land a last double-edge for the kill, but kiting isn't possible with thirst vision. so yea...
Thank you everyone for your answer!
@MeGaMaN: Thanks for the usefull tips.
@Benao: Why do you always look so angry?
@Cookie: I feel like you forgot to tell me something important here and that without that crucial information I won't learn anything. Like, how do you trade better than him?
@RPQ-sama: Hey! actually I often skill the stun level 1! (I generallt use it to try to steal the rune or to run away when i'm out of position)
Hey! actually I often skill the stun level 1! (I generallt use it to try to steal the rune or to run away when i'm out of position)
Both are legit reasons, using it to steal the rune, and using it to survive. In the case of survival, it is not an optimal thing. You did not WANT to skill the stun or use up more than 50% of your mana pool at lvl 1, you HAD TO. Benao is talking about taking an advantage of bs's weak lvl 1, when centaur's lvl 1 is just as weak (and in many ways, weaker).
When BS is lvl 4 and centaur is lvl 4, you can threaten him a bit if he's a bit low on hp, you can stun him in creeps, then deny some creeps, while farming others with double edge.
But a smart BS will not get to half hp randomly, and he'll be able to heal up because he does not need mana to keep his hp up, while you do need mana to be able to actually do something sensible (with stun + double edge).
BTW nobody talked about this, but return is actually pretty good against BS, because BS only heals once he gets the kill, and return will do bonus damage to him if he is bloodraged. This will still not make trading favorable for the centaur, but it will make it much better in general, since bs will be lower in lane, and might open more possibilities for you to harass him this way. He also cannot hit you too much if he can't heal up immediately after trading hits with you, which can be a case when new creepwaves meet, so you can kind of abuse this timing.
Per favore Accedi per inviare commenti.
Gretting people from dotabuff! I may have a few things to ask you!
Recently I had a game where I was playing centaur offlane against a solo bloodseeker (https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3490892344 ).
I had to get the fuck out of the lane because I wasn't able to CS and I couldn't trade hit against him.
My questions are:
- If we don't take in account the difference in skill and my starting build, is it the natural outcome for a 1v1 centor/blood?
- In that scenario what strategy would you have used?
- How do you generally play 1v1 offlane compared to 1v2 (or v3)? I mean, is there a big difference in your playstyle?