This is one of those things that sounds great on paper but would be weird in practice I can guarantee it
thats why u play lycan/chen buddy. u dont need a fucking boot
not nowadays tho, fucking garbage ass game
I liked the change where they attached movement speed to agility, it just makes so much sense, was disappointed when they reverted it.
I’m interested in the concept you’re putting up for discussion, but like parma said, sounds great on paper but will be weird in practice. They’d need to do a lot of balancing work around the movement speeds. Otherwise, the game will just be played at a much slower pace. Movement speed being a separate scaling stat is awful though, imagine how coke’d up heroes like Pugna, WR, Blood would get.
It looks like they are planning to reduce the impact of boots in late game with the addition of neural items like force boots, spider legs and woodland striders.... Actually make sense as the neutral slot is good for late game boot option on 6 slot carry
removing boots and making ms scaling would be like when all boots were given percentage movement speed bonuses, the fast heroes were always faster than the slow ones - e.g. sky getting brown boots was quicker than cm with travels or something.
part of the decision making behind what boots to get is also the movement speed they provide. if you wanna kite people by outrunning them you have to put gold in it, not just be blessed by the frog with 330 starting ms or something.
travels rush is legit on some heroes not just because of the infinite tps but also the movespeed e.g. leshrac
removing boots lowers the depth of the game despite brown boots being a necessity on every hero, the upgrades can change you play and are not just in the game for the sake of variety. early game movement speed makes a big difference and being able to itemise for it earlier gives you options. e.g. if you're a clock at lv 1 and there are no boots, if the opponent has more starting ms you're just fucked, but there are also games where you don't need boots first.
@androgynous I do agree that there is some strat to getting boots on heroes like clock in order to close the gap. But... Does it have to be an item that everyone is mostly obligated to buy? Like would buying a wind lace suffice for clock? Also, If they did this would this just make everyone buy windlace instead of boots if boots was removed because it would be the movement speed everyone needs to get away or catch up. I personally just think buying movement speed at this point is getting outdated. I mean we could even have small lvl 1 talents for heroes like clockword for +10 movement speed. I just feel there are better options than this.
But I also said that, if removing boots is weird and awkward, why not add so many different boots that buying boots is an itemization decision within itself.
But arc/tranq on supp and treads/phase on core is an itemization decisions. Hell, even some cores go arc/tranq if they need it. Boots is fine as it is since it also give more strategic decision
yeah it removes the decision making between heroes that rush boots, delay boots, or skip boots entirely. even if the purchase is obligatory, there is depth in the timing of it, and also limitations due to courier, and starting gold on boots, etc.
I see we need another bonus slot in inventory, but now for boots? Looks like more casual dota!
And hell yeah, that moment in late game where boots is going to backpack instead 6th slot or aegis...
But just deleting boots is so wrong and I'm personaly need replacement of stats from power treads/phase boots + active speed boost/tranquil boots
Or another good option is back attached movement speed to agility (at least) or to your primary attribute (at best)
Also I predict a lot of bugs with change of mechanics
i tink is a gud idea but make it like boots of travel level 3 where you can consume it like aghanim or something prolli
> But I also said that, if removing boots is weird and awkward, why not add so many different boots that buying boots is an itemization decision within itself.
like others have said, upgrading boots is already an itemisation decision. besides travels, all are similarly costed but can make a relatively large change how your hero plays, not just in a vaccuum but also considering the 9 other players in the game.
could they add more upgrade choices, sure, but if they're just adding it for the sake of adding more, for the illusion of more depth, then what's the point. in the current state each boot has it's own niche.
if upgraded boots didn't exist and the only choice was brown boots that gave only movment speed, and the difference having boots and not having them was too significant to ignore, then yeah you could argue that they are not adding anything of value to the game, but that's not the case.
> Also, If they did this would this just make everyone buy windlace instead of boots if boots was removed
slightly different to wind lace unless brown boots had no upgrade paths, where everyone would be on the same footing because they'd all have the same increase in ms. with boot upgrades you have choices that affect your speed, whereas all items from wind lace except tranqs still only give 20 ms, same as wind lace.
if clock goes tranqs + wind lace and the opponent goes treads, there's now a 45 ms difference between the two heroes. there's a decision to be made between getting things that are good on your hero vs things that counter the enemy hero.
why do null / wb / bracers exist? why not remove them from the game and make every hero buy crowns instead so that all heroes get the same bonuses? cores are almost required to get these in most games.
why does consumable regen exist when every hero is forced to get some at the start of every game? because it adds more decision making. sometimes you don't want to replace boots with aegis if it means being unable to hit things. aegis is a good item but it's not always clear cut choice what to exchange for it. that's good, it rewards strategic thinking.
e.g. sometimes you want to replace a damage item because straight damage means nothing if you can't hit things, or you swap a defensive item for your second life, but it also means there's a 1 second window where you have revived but it's still cooling down from your backpack.
@androgynous Yes, But Null WB and Bracer are Items made for different reasons. They even added more that they give like Hp regen and spell amp. I've even seen people go Bracer Wraith band which isn't a thing I've seen before. You can eve get Wraith Band on strength heroes that need the attack speed. This is good design in terms of items.
The timing of boots and decided when to get boots or what boots to get is item decision making, however, it still doesn't answer the question of why boots have to still exist. Because they can easily be turned into other items that revolve around another benefit rather than +50 movement speed or whatever. Like I said before. Vambrace can be the new power treads and Vlads could be the new phase boots with more benefits. There could be a more diverse selection of lane building itemization rather than everyone having to get some form of boots at some time. Null, WB , and Bracer have this idea of early stats that build value. But Boots is an item that builds value that you refuse to get rid of because the movement speed coerces you to keep them in your inventory. Which I find a bad reason to keep boots around.
I'm not sure what can change, but I feel that Movement speed could easily be scaled and buying items should revolve around other things.
ok so then u just gain ms based on ur level is what ur saying? something scaling wtihout items? then theres no depth in starting boots for the movespeed or skipping boots to save 500 gold, thats clearly loss of depth.
@Shoukyaku but none of this is black and white. Just because boots does get removed doesn't mean that other items couldn't replace it as an early game gold sink. It wouldn't be a loss of depth. You could even keep the phasing ability of phase boots and the power tread switching ability of power treads. But does it have to be so directly tied to movement speed which seems to be very redundant?
im not talking abt gold sink for the sake of it, im talking about movement speed, u are basically losing control of a dimension of your hero. movespeed items arent redundant, thats the point. the basis of the idea doesnt make sense.
Ideology
a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy
@shoukyaku You really don't think movespeed items aren't redundant? I mean if you think about it, what is a stat or thing that an item gives that everyone feels obligated to need? Dispel? Not everyone gets it. Evasion? Not everyone gets it. Stats? Everyone gets it but there are different stats you need given the course of the game.
Movement speed is obligated and the different types of boots, to me, is a way to not make boots redundant. Its almost like, "hey we know you guys need movement speed so we added some extra benefits to them to add some slight variant to other things you need".
But this still, to me, doesn't address the redundancy of having movement speed as an item in the first place because its essentially a stat that everyone and I mean everyone needs increased. I for one, usually see items as things you buy to fix what you lack or strengthen what you're already exceeding in. Movement speed does neither of these. Its essentially buying movement speed to fit a norm in the game. Where if someone gets movement speed, everyone needs to get it because no one wants to be slower than the other.
Because think about this. What if they nerfed all boots? And the meta decided that buying boots is just not effecient. So you have games where no one buys boots and everyone just walks slower. Would the game truly suffer? It would essentially be the same, except slower and the benefit of the boots would be marginal if not insignificant if missing. Like attacking slight less, consuming slightly more mana, not being able to phase through things. (Of course with the excluding of Travels).
guys lets remove bkb cuz every carry hero needs it
guys lets remove tangos and salves cuz every hero buys it in lane
guys lets remove clarities because most heroes have to ferry clarities to sustain their mana
literally the only time your argument makes sense is when poor man shield and then stout shield were removed, and here is why. every single melee hero in the game always started with stout shield, before it got removed. it was not like boots, where some times people started with boots, and sometimes you buy it later, and sometimes you never buy it, and sometimes you take one of the many upgrades and sometimes you keep it as brown boots. the situation was that every melee hero in dota needed a stout shield and they always bought it at the same time, and it was not because of any upgrade either, at that point i cant name any other dimension of complexity that stout shield added, so valve made it into a passive for all melee heroes, because it was entirely redundant. although i still disagree with the poor mans shield removal, its a similar argument, because all melee cores needed that item to lane, and the only complexity there was to the item was if you bought the thing with your starting gold or the first thing you bought was 2 slippers to combine with your stout. its pretty similar logic, where it wasnt like you bought pms to upgrade into other things, or that timing played any key role, and there wasnt even a decision to be made on whether u even needed to buy it or not.
idk what part of timing, gold spending, and upgrade path adding to complexity is so hard to understand, its been repeated like 3 times but you havent even addressed it, are u even reading? not every hero starts with boots, or buys them first item, or buys them after lane, or buys them at all.
thansk for listening to my ted talk
@shoukyaku These are non sequiturs. Every Carry hero is not "Every hero". Obviously it works best on a certain hero that has similar play style in a certain role.
Regen items are consumables they go away and don't take up permanent real estate in your inventory and can be easily disregarded. On top of that, hardly anyone uses regen items past a certain part of the game except farming and or trying to heal faster in fountain.
Essentially stout shield could of been kept in the game by your logic if it was able to be upgraded into 2-3 different things other than poor man shield because then stout shield would be a "itemization decision" for melee heroes.
You're also not understanding that buying the boots is not the problem, but the sheer obligation to get a certain amount of movement speed is redundant and the items that upgrade from boots of speed could easily be replaced without movement speed in mind. More than ever are people holding off on boots more and more but its becoming even less neccesary and confusing when we have neutral items that give movement speed and talents. Which mind you, the boots in the game were created for dota before talents and neutrals existed.
Are you just pretending to troll everyone, or are you really this dense?
So many ppl explaining same point multiple times and you still end up missing it.
So just because people aren't understanding logic and explaining why they are used in the game but can't still answer why they need to be in the game. I'm suppose to just accept it?
I mean Dota is not a game that is married to its ideas. You guys give me these reasons of how they're good in this build and meta and what purpose they hold but it still doesn't answer the "if". Shoukyaku definitely has the attitude of someone in 3k behavior score who never practiced a level of civil discourse in his life.
You keep telling me the face value of boots but not the reason they exist beyond that. I mean the next patch of dota could literally remove boots and you're over here telling me why they exist in this patch essentially. But still doesn't explain its redundancy. Shoukyaku already gave an example of stout shield. I could easily have been writing this post 5 years ago asking "Why don't they just remove stout shield" and you guys would still be having the same stick up your ass.
"idk what part of timing, gold spending, and upgrade path adding to complexity is so hard to understand, its been repeated like 3 times but you havent even addressed it, are u even reading? not every hero starts with boots, or buys them first item, or buys them after lane, or buys them at all."
Yea, and you're point is. This is what I'm talking about. This still doesn't address its redundancy. Sure boots are part of gold spending and timing. You're fucking point? It still doesn't address that ALL heroes are hungry for this strat in one way or another so why does it need to be an item that is permanent in your inventory. And no I'm not talking about consumables and no I'm not talking about ALL CARRIES, ALL OFFLANE, whatever. All heroes need gold too, should we make an item in the game that only allows you to accumulate gold?
The fact that you don't see the simple point, proves how dense you are.
They might remove boots next patch, that doesn't mean you or the devs know what they are doing. Ex. Just look at the recent patch changes- Shrines, outposts, secretshop, boots etc, they made stupid changes and they reverted them.
Point is as simple as - Boots force you to itemize better.
You only have 6 active item slots + 1 active neutral slot.
Each slot has it's value. If you use neutral slot for boots(if you get them), then you are sacrificing a better item.
If you decide to keep boots in one of the 6 active slots, you are potentially losing a slot that can be used for a much higher value item.(The reason why in super late games, cores tend to backpack the boots and only move when necessary)
If you keep boots in backpack, you lose a lot of mobility, more so if you are a core that builds Ms buff items.
I know it's too hard for your 10IQ brain to process, but the fact that there are only limited slot does force you to itemize properly.
what you are suggesting is just trying to promote lazy gameplay.
The fact that you think, extra slot has equal value for all roles, is the most stupid thing.
Extra slot on P1 can easily translate to a 5k+ item.
Extra slot on P5 at best can translate into all time ready ward+dust+smoke.
Well, I just saw you rushing yasha first item on ursa, so I don't really think you are ever gonna understand how "itemization" works.
@aD.Goku You just proved my point of what I was saying earlier. The Devs don't know and they revert things all the time. So the fact of entertaining the thought of removing or not removing boots is literally a though experiment. They could remove boots and replace it with a new idea and be the best thing to happen to dota or they could remove boots and revert it because how half-assed the idea was. You don't seem to think hypothetically and enjoy the discourse.
I also need you to take a step back and learn to evaluate the situation for what it is. I can tell you are too pompous and stuck in your ways in terms of Dota that you can't entertain the thought of many things that could happen if they removed boots. Instead you reach out for an ad hominem and try to straw man what I'm talking about because I went yasha first item on an ursa game where we were getting ruined and I don't play ursa and I'm learning hard carry. So It's irrelevant to even speak on those things.
But I'll have to be ignoring you and Shouk replies because you are doing the same hamster wheel response where you tell me why boots are good but refuse to indulge on the "what if". I know why boots are good and why they are important in the game. That still doesn't answer the initial question.
just so we're on the same page, when you say making ms a separate scaling stat it sounds like you mean it increases with level gain.
if so, is this a percentage increase, flat movement speed? is the increase constant for all heroes? e.g. 2 ms per level, or would slower heroes get more ms so that all heroes are on the same ms at lv 30.
if you're suggesting a hypothetical situation and the consequences of it then you've got to be clear. so that others aren't wasting their time arguing a point you aren't making.
for example if you just mean removing all boots and not adding a replacement for ms, then slow heroes stay slow and there's nothing they can do about it. that's not a good idea because it takes away the feeling of control.
e.g a skywrath spams q til you die on cm and you feel like there's nothing you can do because you're 50 ms below him, even if you slow him he catches up, so playing slow heroes just seems like an arbitrary punishment. this has happened before, when boots were changed to percentage increases.
if you mean heroes gain ms with levels to make up for boots being removed, well now every core can just run down supports who don't have levels, and playing pos 5 feels even less fun, because you aren't going to suddenly give a support farm priority just so they can get some ms, and "just get blink / force" is not a counterargument, because your opponents can too.
support heroes that rely on positioning are suddenly much harder to play without the tranqs + wind lace combo. e.g. earthshaker, lion, clock, cm and so on. at least when you were having a bad game and couldn't afford blink/force you could at least get in range to use your spells.
imo boots in their current state are better than the one you are proposing because you have more control, more decisions, on how to make your hero better at influencing whether you win/lose.
@androgynous Well I'm not trying to give the ultimatum or end all be all. I'm just proposing that something or anything could replace it. I'm not fully engaged into game design, but a quick ponder lead me to scaling movement speed. If we were more engaged in this conversation I might actually sit down and think about a whole system that could work under this regard. Its more of a "Don't you think we can do better" perspective.
But the hardest thing about this stuff is that almost all ideas sound horrible in theory but may work in practice. Like what if I told you movementspeed was like a tome and only 3 heroes on a team every 10 mins could buy a movement speed tome? I bet ideas like this would be shit on by 90% of the community. But I'm here to discuss ideas and better ways to make the game more engaging.
Or what if there was a recipe to combine mid game items into boots. Like Guardian Greaves. Mek + Arcane boots. Maybe you want to Mix your Euls with boots and get Eul boots.
Or Arcane + Force Staff + Recipe = Make force boots a buyable item.
I mean many ideas can come from this.
"Like what if I told you movementspeed was like a tome and only 3 heroes on a team every 10 mins could buy a movement speed tome? I bet ideas like this would be shit on by 90% of the community."
because that's just a bad idea. if you're trying to compare your idea to the tome of knowledge it's not even close. tome of knowledge doesn't make your hero permanently stronger, 2 heroes at level 30, one who used a tome is not any stronger, one hero that has a permanent ms boost is.
also with 3 "ms tomes" most pub games will result in the 3 cores getting them, pos 4/5 as a result becomes harder to play, as if people who play 4/5 acting like martyrs already wasn't bad enough.
yes both good and bad ideas will get people who like/dislike them for the wrong reasons but that doesn't make the idea any worse or better. you can be right for the wrong reasons and wrong for the right reasons, but you're still only right or wrong.
the reason i asked for specifics on the scaling ms speed which you still haven't specified on - scaling could mean anything. scaling with networth, scaling with xp, scaling with the player's irl weight? - is that the specifics do matter.
look at mk king on release when basher worked on the clones. im sure valve employee A was like "yeah just make them copy all items" because they just thought it was a cool idea and didn't bother to think of the ramifications.
if ms scaling with levels is a percentage increase, you get the same thing that happened years ago. the gap between slow and fast heroes gets even bigger, slow heroes are even harder to play. if it's flat ms, same idea but not as bad. unless you're 10 levels ahead of the opponent you're going to remain slower than your opponent all game.
if ms scales inversely with base ms, i.e. heroes with low ms gain more ms per level and vice-versa, that sounds even more awful. it's like the worst of both worlds. slow heroes at the start of the game still feel crap to play, and in hyper late game situations where everyone is lv 30 stalemates become even more boring when it's harder to catch people because you all have the same ms.
sure if you had an ai running millions of simulations, figuring out what the "best" patches were you could try as many things as possible but when you're with real players you can't just fuck them and expect people to not quit, when these people are the ones that pay your bills.
look at what happened to dota underlords. kept reworking stuff or adding new stuff because they didn't know how to go forward with the game and now hardly anyone plays it anymore probably because there was one particular patch they enjoyed and the valve did a 180 on it.
this guy really said "what if we removed boots and replaced it with a worse system" then when everyone said, that worse system is worse, he said "what about imaginary better system that i can't come up with but will talk about as if it exists", like ????
i thought you just said you don't boots like treads cuz u can just have vambrace as an item, but now you want to make a new boot combination? make up ur mind, what are u even talking abt.
lmao funny thread, make my head hurt.
what are u guys arguing about here? it seems like u are arguing why in chess knights move like L instead of KEK-L
someone here wants to change the game so it make more sense,
someone else defends the current state of the game cause it makes more sense
and valve patch the game like this:
"wild axes damage type changed to magical"
oh be merciful to me ashes guy!! i will spend my time as u wish !! what am i supposed to do with my own life??? playing a video game for next decade and ending up being anshit god is enough?? or should i start licking parma ass with smurf account aswell? KEKL
Maybe get a job. Google 'meaningful stuff to do in one's life' and stop being a pile of trash for the community.
You're welcome , peace :)
yeah, one true nice guy. swapping accounts on online forum to project his own misery on me, "jobless" !!! =))
EVER TRIED NOT AFK-FARM-ITSKA FOR 90 BEFORE ENDING?
GUESS WHAT YOU GOT PLENTY SLOTS IF YOU, AFK-FARMITSKA-BOI 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
@Shoukyaku at first I thought you had a problem with me, but I'm starting to see you might be suffering from some learning ability or insufferable retardation. The whole point of the thread is to "discuss", Yes, I know its a hard word for you to put into practice. Discuss, a maybe more efficient and better thought out design for movement speed. I didn't say I had the better answer nor did I say my proposals were God Tier. I simply gave examples of how other systems could exist. I gave ideas that I brainstormed, I didn't give ideas that were without fault. I just wanted to give an example to conceptualize what another system might look like.
@Kowareta is right about us arguing about nothing because you aren't engaging in Civil discourse. I wouldn't say this is like asking why the Knight Piece moves in an L. But its more like, Asking why if all the pieces in chess moves like a pawn but there were different chess pieces. If they all moves like pawns, why couldn't they be pawns? or remove the different shapes of pieces to clear reason.
we are discussing xd, funny guy. discussing why u are a little slow in the head KEKW. i dont have a better alternative because theres no reason to change it in the first place. you are trying to fix a problem that isnt there.
all the piece in chess don't move like pawns though, the same way boots dont affect every hero the same, you are working with a really pointless and flawed base so obviously all your shit ideas dont make any sense, just think with ur 2 braincells instead of using some poopoo remark like "not civil discourse", are u a baby? do i need to coddle you? u cant speak bad words on the internet? grow up, and use ur brain. zzzzzz ok im done with this thread xd. fun while it lasted.
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I feel boots is an outdate ideology in Dota at this point. Could they instead have movement speed be a seperate scaling stat that does not take up an inventory space. It doesn't make sense to have an item that nearly everyone is obligated to buy. Power treads, phase boots, Tranquils could all be easily replaced by just an item that you buy for their buffs rather than attaching it to movement speed. For example, instead of Power treads, they could easily make Vambrace an item you buy that would be good on heroes that need power treads and allow you to Vambrace switch rather than power tread switch. Also allow an item that will allow you to phase through things but give other stats to it rather than just movement speed. Boots of Travel could easily be a recipe you buy to upgrade your TP scroll slot. I don't see the point in an item taking up a slot in your inventory just for another slot (your TP scroll slot) to not be consumed.
It also feels very outdated if a game goes long when you are 6 slotted and to get aegis you have to drop your boots because they become the weakest item in your inventory. Essentially I'm thinking boots are starting to become a middle man that needs to be cut out.
It would be different if only some heroes needs boots and its a choice in the matter. But when everyone is obligated to get boots at sometime during the game it feels like bad game design at this point of where Dota is right now. Unless more boots can be added into the game and allow movement speed items at a wider variety where hardly anyone will get the same type of boots in the same game.