General DiscussionFor everyone thinking vanguard is a horrible item on spec

the reason vanguard is silly is because the hp doesnt go to your illusions, or the block. If you want survivability, get drums.

inb4 wink: Vanguard sucks.

@Viceroy:
You really have issues understanding something.

If a hardcarry can't stay in lane and farm then the game is fucking over.

Vanguard isn't for illusions, but for the hero himself.

http://dotabuff.com/players/70388657/matches?date=&faction=&hero=lich&lobby_type=&game_mode=&duration=

If a pro is doing it, you don't really have to do it. Ok, this is an extreme case, but you get my point.

But hey, if Vanguard works in your MMR bracket then go for it, if Drums works in your bracket, then go for it. Build whatever the hell is better for you and your team.

Noone kills the illusions in the 5 secs that they exist

If Spectre does a good ult they won't fcking stop and attack the illusions. Only case would be OD cause she 1hits the illusion with her orb.

"Drums cause it gives hp to illusions" fckin ridiculous xD

if you want to have regen to farm, then get a casual ring + stout shield. at least then you can use the ring for something not stupid, and sell the shield later. vanguard can't be disassembled and is a waste of 2250 gold for heroes that dont plan to have ridiculous early aggression, and even then, there are better items for those heroes (BB for example can go mek and be more survivable)

Guys you dont get vanguard ffs, just get a ring to have regen stout because you need it in lane and a vitality booster to have more hp and to survive some ganks, you dont need vanguard.

Kappa

^if vanguard were able to be disassembled it would be one of the best items in dota, but it cant be, so its trash. vanguard offers nothing in late game for spectre, its like buying a helm on OD because "muh survivabilirs"

late game, the thing is that only LATE LATE game vanguard is useless, the block happens after the damage reduction from dispersion so is still effective, only when your enemies start to do big crits is when vanguard starts being useless.

Plus if the game goes late and you are spectre you are probably going to have money so i dont see the problem in just selling vanguard after 50 min and getting another item. If you got vanguard at 10 minutes it was probably worth it if you had more hp in 40 min of the game.

Vanguard probably dies only after 40 50 min of game.

OD can get mek, it gives him no damage at all only a bit of survivability, plus mek dies at 50 min in the game as vanguard does, that doesnt make it a bad item.

Like seriously if you have a ring and a stout why not getting vanguard for an extrA 1100 gold ? Getting drums for 1850 instead of vanguard for 1100 would be pretty bad, like if you are not going to get vanguard you dont get a fucking ring, and if you get drums you are not going to have regen.

^if vanguard were able to be disassembled it would be one of the best items in dota, but it cant be, so its trash. vanguard offers nothing in late game for spectre, its like buying a helm on OD because "muh survivabilirs"

tHIS MADE ME FCUKIN CRY XD GOD DAMN WINK YOURE A FUN BOY ROFL HAHAHAHAHAHA

if you are in such a shitty position that you are forced to go vanguard, i HIGHLY doubt you can build it in 10 minutes instead of saving another 1800 gold for a relic at 16-17 minutes.

well, @Wink:^if vanguard were able to be disassembled it would be one of the best items in dota, but it cant be, so its trash. vanguard offers nothing in late game for spectre, its like buying a helm on OD because "muh survivabilirs"

So you mean the item would be one of the best if you could disassemble it. AKA the item itself is good but since it doesn't scale well it's not good. I might misunderstood you, but is that what you mean?

is better to get drum ur ilu get ms and as aura

^ Kappa

^no hes serious and correct

and @dangdang the issue with vanguard is that it does not scale and costs so much for what it does, there are other items that do each individual thing, except for less and more efficiently. if you could disassemble vanguard, you would be able to use the ring and vit booster for good late game items and therefore would be a great item.

@wink if u get a casual ring of health, it makes no sense to go drums as you're delaying your radiance/any other item so much that you'll be useless.

not to mention if a team can pick you up the extra 150 hp and damage block of spectre (which makes her impossible to blow up with autoattacks, and having 1100 hp isnt exactly easy to burst through) while a drums spec is incredibly vulnerable to ganks

if you build drums on spectre, its because you are going to be aggressive early, which means you arent farming a radiance in the jungle/lane for 15 minutes, it means you are 5manning with your team and trying to dominate the early-mid game. you dont get ganked if you get drums because you arent going to be solo farming.

There are 2 possibilities when playing carries:
1. You are farming at least enough to get your core at a good time (<20 minute radiance for spectre)
2. You are unable to farm your core fast enough (up against early aggression)

If you can farm a fast radiance, do it. If you can't, go drums and try to 5man. If that doesnt work, you are in a bad situation because of the draft, not because of your items. If you are losing teamfights with the drums, you arent going to win them with a vanguard. if you are safe enough to farm a lane on your own, you dont even need a vanguard.

lol unless ur being pressured super hard vanguard is shit

its better to get vatality booster and keep it for future heart which will be ur core item even when ur six sloted

First of all, imo the best and truly way to play spectre - assissting in ganks all over the map, ult is up - ask teammates for ganks. With vanguard and even 1 point in dispersion you can easily tower dive for kills, damage block is fucking awesome for blocking tower damage. After these ganks push with team or tp to place with creeps to farm. Seriously, afk farming dat radiance and pressing R "OMG I WILL KILL EVERYBODY RAMPAGE HAHA GET REKT SCRUBS" isn't that effective, because enemy heroes are not getting ganked and actually can farm items too if they are not braindead.

^if they are not braindead, they wont be farming against a fucking spectre unless they have dusa or void.

I don't think illusions get the movespeed or aura lol....

Just. Build. Whatever. The. Fuck. Works. For. You.

^You can't take that attitude man, people (in my crap bracket at least) think battlefury works for their Bounty Hunters; that doesn't mean it's right.

Seriously though, I have no idea what's right for Spectre any more. Continue arguing please.

So you are saying that drums would be better to 5 man ? Any other hero could get drums if you mean for the aura, drums gives you less hp and no damage block ( really important if you are 5 maning in mid game ) and it only gives you some mana and some agility. Plus late game you are going to need to sell drums right ? Again vanguard would give you way more survivability you dont really need the MS someone else could get it if you only want the aura and you dont really use the mana.

Like seriously if you are not going to get vanguard dont get drums.

We could talk about heroes like naga who like spectre needs radiance and sometimes if you cant rush it you get drums, but naga actually needs the mana and her illusions are used all the time so the extra hp on the illusions are actually used ( plus naga carry mid usually gets bottle so they dont need the hp regen ) , spectre illusions are only used in her ulti ( at least before manta ) and in team fights NO ONE in the enemy team is going to atack the illusions.

Players like xboct and wagamama are building vanguard lately, things change and the nerf to tranquils and the buff to vanguard changed the game.

@Wink

It isn't that black and white as you make it out to be. It can be:

-We can't fight as 5 and our only chance is to create space for Spectre to farm up some items.

Now, you might say that if you got space to farm you can just farm the Radiance but there is no way people will let a Spectre farm freely on a lane and not do something about it if they are a bit ahead. That's when you need to be off the map farming woods, switching lanes and stuff like that. Vanguard helps because it gives you sustain and the ability to join a fight when your ultimate is up. It's silly to say that a Spectre should 5 man with her team. The whole point of the hero is to never 5 man and only ultimate in or TP to a fight under towers.

Like, i am not saying that you should get vanguard everygame, like Vaikiss is saying i would only get vanguard if i am being pressured hard, in this case i would rather have vanguard than drums.

@artiq
For the 100000th time, if you need sustain, you dont need to buy a full fucking vanguard and waste 2000 gold. you can get JUST the ring of health and farm the jungle no problem.

@我有名字
it does give the illusions everything

@dorkly
drums is a lot more than just the aura, and what makes you say more than 1 drums is bad? it gives lots of stats that actually benefit your illusions, not to mention self AS and MS, so its always good for 5manning, infact in a lot of pro games, 3 heroes on the same team have built drums simply because its good for EVERYTHING, not just the aura.

@zano
say that to shadowblade+aghs luna, bfury BH, aghs pucks, etc

in a lot of pro games, people also build vanguard on spectre (okay not a lot but its seen reasonably enough) so if you're going to draw evidence for 3 drums, well, vanguard is also seen (and has been getting picked up more and more as of late).

i think ur missing the part where if u get ring of health ur delaying ur core items a ton, if you go drums you're still extremely squishy.
"If you can't, go drums and try to 5man."

this is precisely why vanguard is better, if you're 5 manning, you want to be as tanky as possible to let desolate do the work. your haunt illusions gain a little but but still close to nothing from the drums, and 150 hp vs 300 hp and damage block (which is insane on spectre) makes him almost impossible to kill. hence if you're going 5 manning, it makes way more sense to get a vanguard. plus it makes him a lot less prone to pickoffs, because even if u are 5 manning, spectre isn't going to be with the team all the time (haunts in) plus you can't be grouped up as 5 the entire game and so there are going to be chances for the enemy team to pick you off, vanguard makes this much much much more difficult.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't 9 points in stats pretty meh when the illusions only come out when you activate your long-cd ulti?

that and the illusions still don't do much more with the stats

No i am not saying that more than 1 drums is bad, i am saying that spectre doesnt need the other stats, 9 agility ( 9 damage 1 armor and 9 atack speed ) +171 hp + some mana + 3 damage, i dont see how that its better than a good amount more of hp damage block and regen because your illusions are going to get what ? 3 damage ? that its nothing, your dont really need the mana ( dagger and ulti ) your illusions are not going to get focused in the early fights anyway.

Like zano is saying its not like your are making illusions all the time, so little stats for illusions of a long cd ulti .....

Sure drums are way better in heroes like pl or naga or terrorblade, but those heroes actually need the mana, they do illusions all the time not only in a ultimate and they need the ms because they usually split push a lot in the map.

"Damage reduction takes place before others such as block and armor."

So lets say that they hit you for 200, you reduce 44 from dispersion so it would be like 156, and from this 156 you reduce 40 so the damage is 116, personally i think its pretty sick the damage block.

btw, did someone think about armlet spectre ? The extra hp would be sick and it could work like a offensive and defensive item, it gives you 475 hp instead of 250 from vanguard, and it actually gives you even more hp regen.

@Wink

But you want the health to join the fights with your ultimate without dying in 2 seconds and you want the stout shield for the laning phase. Did you miss the part where I wrote "ability to join fights"? All in all Vanguard is a great package deal when you're not completely stomping the enemy and have the ability to rush a Radiance with little risk.

vanguard allows you to farm as well as 5 man when necessary with haunt, drums only gives you the latter and not even that much though it sets you up better for lategame/solves some mana problems

youre talking about delaying the core items yet you say buy a 2250 gold item that does nothing in late game

That does nothing in late game part is bullshit, drums does nothing in late game, and what ? is drums a bad item now because it gives you almost nothing in late game ?

Vanguard start being useless really late.

thats because vanguard allows you to get to the late game instead of repeatedly dying and never getting any farm while also contributing to teamfights, drums only gives the latter.

btw http://www.datdota.com/stats.php?p=items

Armlet spectre 3 times bought and only by EE lol ...

BUT 100 % winrate boys ....

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Drums a pretty meh late game item as well? I mean, the aura...it's fucking 5%, that's a number you don't really feel unless you have either Travels, Manta, Euls if you are a support or Spirit Breaker in your team to give a further boost to your MS at which point, you'll probably sell the Drums anyway to pick something better because a support would pick an additional Drum. I think Drums are mostly gotten for heroes who desperately need the stats boost for the mid game and can make great use of the charges, like Jugger and BH.

why did I start that Spectre thread

the difference between drums and vanguard is that drums actually helps you through the midgame teamfights in ways other than tanking you up, because regardless of items, if you get focused early on, you die.

What is so hard to understand about Vanguard allowing you to farm even when you're not ahead and allows you to join fight without dying in 2 seconds?

The fact that you dont need to buy a vanguard to get that effect!
hp? bracer or casual vit booster
hp regen? casual ring of health or even morbid mask
block? wtf why are you so desperate for block that you would pay 2250 gold for it?

once you have a vanguard, thats it. its just a vanguard. if you get a vit booster, thats part of your heart. if you get a bracer, thats part of your drums. if you get a ring of health or mask, it could build into other good items, or just be sold, at least its not 2250 gold. if you buy a stout shield, you just sell it when you need room. its so much more efficient to have separate items that you will ACTUALLY USE FOR YOUR CORE/SITUATIONALS instead of 1 trash item that will just delay your core.

^the block is important. It makes a big difference in the first twenty minutes when tower diving with dagger, and when escaping ganks or avoiding death.

Vanguard is ridiculously strong when purchased at 5-7 minutes.

BUT WHY WOULD YOU GET A VANGUARD AT FIVE MINUTES IF YOU COULD BUY A RELIC AT 10?! if you are getting so much farm, you dont even need a fucking vanguard.

Thats like, if you get a ridiculous amount of farm and have like 6k gold to spend buy 15 minutes, are you gonna buy a vanguard or a radiance?

What are you talking about? So I need the stout for early game, I need the HP regeneration for farming and I need the Vitality Booster. I buy them all but I shouldn't assemble them into a Vanguard because I waste 2250 gold that I already paid anyway?

Vanguard doesn't delay my core at all. You just said I needed all three items if I wanted to farm woods and still be able to join fights. Where is the delay? What other items let me do that?

If I don't have the Stout shield I will take massive damage when jungling. If I don't have the regeneration I will not sustain laning/jungling and if I don't have the HP I can't be as efficient in fights.

@Wink
because a good team will kill you before ten if you have no survival. The vanguard pick up actively deters a good team from trying to gank you in the first place, can save you if they try or buy enough time for back up TPs to come in, and allows you to haunt into team fights safely without risking losing unreliable gold, and allows you to aggressively chase enemies with dagger past tower range. That is why top players get vanguard. Not to mention they will often go for radiance/manta/difussal/Bfly before considering the heart, especially when they went vanguard first.

But sure... Xboct, Silent and Loda are just shitty at Dota and have no idea what they are doing....

Believe what you want. The reality is 5.5k - Pro dota is much different than pub dota.

@artiq
that is the problem with vanguard. its the fact that you get all these good items, and turn them into 1 item that cant be disassembled. that vit booster should be part of your heart, but instead, it is wasted on vanguard. that ring could be part of linkens or refresher or something, but instead its wasted on vanguard. that stout shield could be a poor mans shield, it blocks more and gives agi.

Of course it delays your core, vanguard isnt a core, radiance and heart are core.

@concede
i never said they are shitty at dota, im saying their item choices were questionable, just like xboct using blademail on spectre, or getting 2 rapiers on gyro when he was already winning and didnt need to risk it (and then died, nearly throwing the game)

radiance/diffusal/manta are core.

Heart/butterfly are luxury